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Origin of speculative masonry

Luigi Visentin

Registered User
To be fair, the military format of the 18th Degree and all of the rest of the French degrees didn't exist before their invention in the wake of the famous oration to French Freemasons delivered by the Chevalier Ramsay (a Scot who lived most of his life in France) in 1737.

Such an affirmation means that at least we should eliminate the hypothesis of a military origin of the Craft as there are evidences about. Unfortunately I have not found these evidences in Masonic literature but perhaps there are other that I have not found.

If it is correct that the Scottish Rite and particularly the most part of its degrees is a product of eighteen-century (but I do not think that this is completely true) we can not say with certainty if before 1700 Freemasonry had a military form or not. Or better, I am of the idea that the “French invention” is likely a modification of the original form of Freemasonry and not simply a product of Ramsay’s speech, which only allowed the misleading connection with the Templars.
 
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Elexir

Registered User
Such an affirmation means that at least we should eliminate the hypothesis of a military origin of the Craft as there are evidences about. Unfortunately I have not found these evidences in Masonic literature but perhaps there are other that I have not found.

If it is correct that the Scottish Rite and particularly the most part of its degrees is a product of eighteen-century (but I do not think that this is completely true) we can not say with certainty if before 1700 Freemasonry had a military form or not. Or better, I am of the idea that the “French invention” is likely a modification of the original form of Freemasonry and not simply a product of Ramsay’s speech, which only allowed the misleading connection with the Templars.

Actully no-one is saying that freemasonry has its orgins in France. This disscusion is in regards to an appendant body that originated later.
When it comes to AA(S)R we do however have a trace back to France and the jacobite struggle (schottish) and later that the rite recived its current overall form in the early 1800s in the US.
Maybe there is litterature wich you dont have acess to that points to certain ideas?

French invention?
Do you mean the french rite (not the AA(S)R?
Freemasonry in France in the 1700s was a complex scene with a lot of diffrent things happening so you need to specify yourself here.
 

Luigi Visentin

Registered User
Likely I have expressed myself wrong as I though it was referred not only to the appendant bodies and I was referring to the AA(S)R. My mistake.

When it comes to AA(S)R we do however have a trace back to France and the jacobite struggle (schottish) and later that the rite recived its current overall form in the early 1800s in the US
No discussion about this. However its very beginning are unknown except from the fact that since 1733 / 1735 there are traces about higher degrees and "scots lodges" and not in France but in England and Ireland.

Maybe there is litterature wich you dont have acess to that points to certain ideas
Sorry but I have not understood your sentence.
 

Elexir

Registered User
Likely I have expressed myself wrong as I though it was referred not only to the appendant bodies and I was referring to the AA(S)R. My mistake.

No discussion about this. However its very beginning are unknown except from the fact that since 1733 / 1735 there are traces about higher degrees and "scots lodges" and not in France but in England and Ireland.


Sorry but I have not understood your sentence.

Yes there existed a lot of higher degrees in England as well as France.
We do however know that the AA(S)R originated in France in a rite wich had 25 degrees with more degrees added and the AA(S)R was created around 1801. Every part of this is traceble.

If I remember correctly, you are not a freemason. So maybe there are things that you are not allowed acess to that fully points at certain ideas.
 

Luigi Visentin

Registered User
remember correctly, you are not a freemason. So maybe there are things that you are not allowed acess to that fully points at certain ideas.
Shhhhh! If my wife discover it my two free evenings every months are in danger! :D:D:D:D

Seriously speaking I know the story of the AA(S)R at least the one reported by various scholars. I'm not however involved in the Rite, therefore if there is anything more that is explained to higher degrees I cannot know it, except what is reported by various scholars (I mean referred only to history, not to contents). However the "association" that I have found in my researches which has a lot of similarities with Freemasonry had also a system that could be defined as "degree of perfection", therefore if my findings are correct, the AA(S)R pre-history could be older than what is thought.
 

Elexir

Registered User
Shhhhh! If my wife discover it my two free evenings every months are in danger! :D:D:D:D

Seriously speaking I know the story of the AA(S)R at least the one reported by various scholars. I'm not however involved in the Rite, therefore if there is anything more that is explained to higher degrees I cannot know it, except what is reported by various scholars (I mean referred only to history, not to contents). However the "association" that I have found in my researches which has a lot of similarities with Freemasonry had also a system that could be defined as "degree of perfection", therefore if my findings are correct, the AA(S)R pre-history could be older than what is thought.

The AA(S)R dont even exist in regular form here in Sweden, I think LDH uses it but thats it.
And here lies the problem. Without knowing what actully happends in the degrees or how it evolved or its relations with other rites. Again you need to look deeper at not just shallow.

>a system that could be defined as "degree of perfection",

Locally the 18th degree "perfects" the new brother. Allegedly it is a Christian degree, but I thought that only Christ was perfect.

The degree is full of alchemical symbolism directed to the perfection of matter. If so the original working may date much earlier than the 18th century.

Actully just becuse something in the degree has been used earlier dont mean that the degree is older. The more you look at it its obvious that freemasonry in many aspects are in many ways sort of "best of collection of esoteric ideas"
 

Luigi Visentin

Registered User
No comment, also because we are likely off-topic.

Coming back to the initial question, my answer is: at least since from the oldest information we have. The Regius Poem and the other manuscripts cite many different sources like the Polychronicon, the Historia Scholastica, the Ethymologiarum of Isidore and The Golden Legend and others not clearly declared. All these books were popular, but not so common, because books were expensive and rare, at least till Gutenberg. Moreover the real operative masons of middle age were mainly illiterate (as also many nobles and even church people). The text of the Masonic manuscripts instead is for people who had a knowledge that at the time was characteristics of a higher education (read: at university level or similar). And hidden under the text there are many other references that denotes a high cultural level for the time. It is not by chance that the Liberal Arts are cited, which is also important for the answer as the speculation on the knowledge and education, basic and spiritual, took a big part in the intellectual discussions in the late middle age. A poor stonecutter could not access even to a very basic instruction, let alone an higher education.
 

BroBook

Premium Member
No comment, also because we are likely off-topic.

Coming back to the initial question, my answer is: at least since from the oldest information we have. The Regius Poem and the other manuscripts cite many different sources like the Polychronicon, the Historia Scholastica, the Ethymologiarum of Isidore and The Golden Legend and others not clearly declared. All these books were popular, but not so common, because books were expensive and rare, at least till Gutenberg. Moreover the real operative masons of middle age were mainly illiterate (as also many nobles and even church people). The text of the Masonic manuscripts instead is for people who had a knowledge that at the time was characteristics of a higher education (read: at university level or similar). And hidden under the text there are many other references that denotes a high cultural level for the time. It is not by chance that the Liberal Arts are cited, which is also important for the answer as the speculation on the knowledge and education, basic and spiritual, took a big part in the intellectual discussions in the late middle age. A poor stonecutter could not access even to a very basic instruction, let alone an higher education.
Greetings Brothers it's been awhile, good stuff. You all covered everything I have heard and more !

Sent from my LML212VL using My Freemasonry mobile app
 

Elexir

Registered User
No comment, also because we are likely off-topic.

Coming back to the initial question, my answer is: at least since from the oldest information we have. The Regius Poem and the other manuscripts cite many different sources like the Polychronicon, the Historia Scholastica, the Ethymologiarum of Isidore and The Golden Legend and others not clearly declared. All these books were popular, but not so common, because books were expensive and rare, at least till Gutenberg. Moreover the real operative masons of middle age were mainly illiterate (as also many nobles and even church people). The text of the Masonic manuscripts instead is for people who had a knowledge that at the time was characteristics of a higher education (read: at university level or similar). And hidden under the text there are many other references that denotes a high cultural level for the time. It is not by chance that the Liberal Arts are cited, which is also important for the answer as the speculation on the knowledge and education, basic and spiritual, took a big part in the intellectual discussions in the late middle age. A poor stonecutter could not access even to a very basic instruction, let alone an higher education.

Im going to start at the bottom here becuse thats actully not completly true. While illitarate masons did not have acess to written material the churches provided more then enough education on spiritual matters just by using symbolism in a more profound manner then we see in modern time wich is evident in older churches.
They also needed to know where to put what in a church becuse positioning actully matters.

I also think we do sometimes under estimate non-university education.
In reality, who understands applied physics more? A professor or someone who drives a forklift for a living?
How electricity work? A proffesor or an electrician?

I honestly dont see the masonic manuscripts as not avalible to normal people. Remember that the Illiad was actully memorized and told directly from memory before it was written down.
 

Center

Registered User
this question, the role of the Christianity, and if there were initially two or three de) are the ones I heard most in my research of the Royal Art
 
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Center

Registered User
>a system that could be defined as "degree of perfection",

Locally the 18th degree "perfects" the new brother. Allegedly it is a Christian degree, but I thought that only Christ was perfect.

The degree is full of alchemical symbolism directed to the perfection of matter. If so the original working may date much earlier than the 18th century.

I really like your opinion, but is an upright familiar feeling I am acquainted when I read your posts.

In point of fact @Luigi Visentin is conceivably referring to the "gradi di perfezionamento," that literally do not refer to an ethereal degree of perfection but the perfecting ones. So paradoxically are the degrees, regrettably not entirely object of proper installation in these days, that are far to be a degree of perfection, in fact some writer I do not remember the name claims are the ones of the ancient minor mysteries 4-14, in the system of the Massoneria Rossa(Red), till the maximum expression of the 18th grade, where the red terminates maybe in the breast of the Pelican, so that begin after the philosophy, because it goes really far imo from the philanthropic meaning some author puts really central. And is on this regard that tracing back the origin of the 18th degree is a really demanding life mission, especially if we think over the role of the Christianity, or even previous associations, just to mention one stop that is near the Christianity not only temporary, the Academy of the free thought in Athens

Of course the tools a candidate takes can be a life transforming experience in the first degrees, or even after, not too mention a simple discussion not dogmatic with free men as a building stone.
 
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Mike Martin

Eternal Apprentice
Premium Member
No comment, also because we are likely off-topic.

Coming back to the initial question, my answer is: at least since from the oldest information we have. The Regius Poem and the other manuscripts cite many different sources like the Polychronicon, the Historia Scholastica, the Ethymologiarum of Isidore and The Golden Legend and others not clearly declared.
I have difficulty with this contention and I would be grateful for your clarification as to its foundation.

I have read the Regius Poem many times since it was first made available on-line some years ago. I don't remember it citing any of the books you mention and its contents don't seem to approximate to their claimed contents either for those who haven't before you can read it here: http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/regius.html
 

Luigi Visentin

Registered User
I'm sorry but I have not completely understood your post. The complete answer in any case is very long, therefore pardon me if I will give you only some indications. The citation, or better, in some cases, the reference to the books I have mentioned, can be found directly or after some researches as the author cited the entire book but not the point to which he was referring. In any case here are some direct citations.

1) Regius Poem

In the Regius the author states that he has taken the legend of the four crowned from the Golden Legend:

"By the bok he may kit schowe, in the legent of scanctorum, The name of quatoru coronatorum".


The "legent of scanctorum" is a miswriting of "Legenda Sanctorum" the original name of "The Golden Legend" of Jacobus de Varagine, which was used for centuries as a "Wikipedia" of the life of saints.

2) Cooke MS. In the Cooke manuscript http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/cooke.html (and in some following manuscripts) are directly cited :

The Polychronicon (author Ranulf Hidgen)
De Imagine Mundi

The "Ethomolegiarum (Etymologie) of Isidore of Seville
The Master of the Stories,
that is the Historia Scholastica

This last point is pretty important. The citation about the "Master of the stories" is referred to Petrus Comestor, a famous middle age scholar who is said to have read some many books that he literally ate them. His main work is the Historia Scholastica, one of the most successful book before the birth of the modern printing. This book and his author were so famous that the same definition "Master of the Stories" means "Historia Scholastica", that is when there is the citation "the Master of the Stories said", it means "as is reported by the Historia Scholastica". And this is valid not only for masonic manuscripts but in many middle age books from different countries (even in Italy he was known as Pietro Mangiastorie, Peter the Stories-eater).

The are other examples (part of the Inigo Jone MS, for example, is directly copied from the Antiquities of the Jews, of Josephus), but the most important thing is that in some case it is necessary to know the subject of the citation to find it in the cited book (I'm still trying to find out exactly the citation of the De Imagine Mundi, or better of the Imago Mundi of Honorius even if I have an idea but it is a pretty long explanation).

However if the right point is found every citation has a meaning and, in some cases, is really very interesting. For example by reading the Historia Scholastica is possible to understand the real meaning of the Masonic citation of the "tower of babylon".

The are also some other books "hidden" in the Legend but this requires a much longer intervention.
 

Mike Martin

Eternal Apprentice
Premium Member
I'm sorry but I have not completely understood your post. The complete answer in any case is very long, therefore pardon me if I will give you only some indications. The citation, or better, in some cases, the reference to the books I have mentioned, can be found directly or after some researches as the author cited the entire book but not the point to which he was referring. In any case here are some direct citations.
Excellent information, thank you.
When I get time I will run through the poem as shared here previously to test the accuracy of it.
 
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