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Why does Freemasonry require a belief in God?

Classical

Premium Member
I'm just an EA waiting for FC, so I am not a scholar on this matter. But I will say this: I joined Freemasonry in part because of its being rooted in divine wisdom (however the mason chooses to define that). Upholding my belief in a Supreme Being and the immortality of the soul upon my initiation was a profound experience. If God had been left out it would have been an empty ceremony.

I don't understand people who join something so that they can transform its fundamentals into something else. If you don't like an organization's commitments, then find another one. That's my opinion. Interesting discussion!
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
In my view the issue is not whether the candidate is a theist or a deist or a believer in The Force.
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No_thats-not-true-thats-impossibl-J5n6.jpg
 

hanzosbm

Premium Member
I fail to see why an absence of belief in deity should preclude a man being made a mason, outside of "well the landmark says so." That's a valid reason, but if that's the only reason provided, one must admit that it's fails objective scrutiny. Saying "that's just how it is" is not an objectively driven defense.

I have stated several times throughout this thread why an athiest should not be made a Mason outside of the landmark, as have several others.

I'm going to go ahead and take a wild leap and say that you are an atheist who wants to become a Mason. I was once in your shoes. I also didn't like it and argued that it shouldn't be that way and was frustrated about it. Now, from the other side looking back, I am telling you, there is a good reason for it and it's not going to change. I'm sorry if that doesn't sit well, but believe me when I tell you that without belief in a Supreme Being, an atheist would soon find himself bored by Freemasonry anyway. Sometimes, it's just not a good fit, no matter how badly you want it to be.
 
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Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
In my view the issue is not whether the candidate is a theist or a deist or a believer in The Force.

The issue seems to me that the candidate must be committed to some higher good than him/herself. This higher good can be conceptualized as a divine plan or stewardship of the planet or serving the Light or carrying out dharma or the perfection of humanity.

In the Christian context this commitment to a higher good is put in terms of God and Christ, but for those from other traditions it is framed differently.

It is recognition of a higher obligation that is critical rather than the words used to represent that obligation.
That is not correct in regular Freemasonry
 

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
Buddhism

.... I fail to see why an absence of belief in deity should preclude a man being made a mason, outside of "well the landmark says so." That's a valid reason, but if that's the only reason provided, one must admit that it's fails objective scrutiny. Saying "that's just how it is" is not an objectively driven defense.

Because it's what we want. No "defense" is required. It need not pass any rationality test. There are fraternities which have no religious test. No defense is required for those fraternities either. There are fraternities which are Christian (Masonic and non-Masonic). No defense required for them.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
coachn said:
The scripts call for believers. Believers are not only the target market, but it is what other members want as a qualifier for entry and participation.
Pretty much sums it up.Pretty much sums it up.
This message brought to you by the script writers at Consolidated F&AM Inc. :D
 

Derek Barclay

Registered User
So much of what we speak is clouded by interpretation. I think that's why I'm inclined to speak with 'robust' words - in a futile attempt to simplify what it is I'm trying to convey.

I am atheistic. It is not a choice.
I understand the importance of honesty and humanism without an exterior guide.
The thing I call 'I' will no longer exist when my life comes to an end, so it seems.

Why are these thoughts a deterrent to your wanting to fraternize with someone like myself?
If you say you can be a friend to someone like myself but simply don't think I could be a good mason, why is that?
How can you compartmentalize life?

I'm aware these questions have probably been addressed ad nauseum, and I'm genuinely sorry if that annoys yall.
 

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
I can be friends with an atheist. Heck, I can even be friends with a Texan. ;) .

See John Nagy's post above as to why we have the requirement.

Let me ask this: why would you want to devote a significant part of your life and wealth to a system based upon religious writings, promises made in the name of Deity, and lectures based upon the immortality of the soul?
 

Derek Barclay

Registered User
Well I should hope so! :p We Texans are a friendly bunch.

I'm aware that the order does not want non-believers to be members. I'm trying to figure out why. Again, please don't misinterpret my tone. I'm not upset. Just curious. So far, the only reason yall seem to give is 'because they said so.'

I'm currently looking for something bigger than myself to contribute my time to. I think that that's what gives people genuine happiness, to be a part of something bigger. I, unfortunately, do not have a deity to turn to. I'm forced to turn to my fellow human beings. I'm not so much trying to join the fraternity anymore. I stated in the other thread that I've all but written off the possibility of my joining the group. Again, just curious.

The moment yall tell me to f*** off, I will. haha
 
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Derek Barclay

Registered User
I petitioned an order of La Droit Humain based out of Colorado, and was accepted, but their presence in Texas is only virtual. At the time I felt like I needed a physical lodge to attend, but I'm re-thinking this. I've also found a couple of irregular masonic groups on Meetups so that's something I may pursue.

My vision of a successful future for our species is one that lacks division, in any and all respects. If I were to join an irregular order, I'm sure a priority concern of mine would be to consolidate all of the lodges.
 

Derek Barclay

Registered User
I've often wondered why people put an emphasis on ritual. It's a symbol. The meat is underneath. Of course, when it comes to masonry, EA come to understand that quickly, I'm sure, once they are shown what the symbols represent, but I've never heard anyone come out and say that symbols are just symbols. They have only the power we give them. Money is a prime example. It is literally nothing. Our beliefs make it into something greater. Few seem to understand that and even fewer seem to want to talk about it.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
I've often wondered why people put an emphasis on ritual. It's a symbol. The meat is underneath. Of course, when it comes to masonry, EA come to understand that quickly, I'm sure, once they are shown what the symbols represent, but I've never heard anyone come out and say that symbols are just symbols. They have only the power we give them. Money is a prime example. It is literally nothing. Our beliefs make it into something greater. Few seem to understand that and even fewer seem to want to talk about it.
The same compelling forces drive far too many men to worship a law giver, teacher and general wisdom provider, rather than what these individuals try to provide. Such is the general demeanor of many. Highly Organized Superficiality is an Art-form and it is sought after in mass at times.
 

hanzosbm

Premium Member
I'm aware that the order does not want non-believers to be members. I'm trying to figure out why. Again, please don't misinterpret my tone. I'm not upset. Just curious. So far, the only reason yall seem to give is 'because they said so.'

I have given reasons, but since those reasons have been overlooked by yourself and others, I'll repeat them.

As others have mentioned, Freemasonry teaches us lessons to guide our thoughts and actions. As others have pointed out, the lessons help guide us on how to conduct ourselves in terms of interacting with our fellow humans, and the world as a whole. However, ultimately, when one digs deeply enough, it also teaches us how and where we fit into the grand scheme of things and I would go so far to even saying the meaning of life. And all of that centers around our relationship with God, by whatever name one chooses to use.
If the end goal is to explain our relationship with something that you don't believe in, what is the point? Furthermore, having someone arguing against the basic tenets from within would be destructive.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
Derek Barclay said:
I'm aware that the order does not want non-believers to be members. I'm trying to figure out why. Again, please don't misinterpret my tone. I'm not upset. Just curious. So far, the only reason yall seem to give is 'because they said so.'
I have given reasons, but since those reasons have been overlooked by yourself and others, I'll repeat them.

As others have mentioned, Freemasonry teaches us lessons to guide our thoughts and actions. As others have pointed out, the lessons help guide us on how to conduct ourselves in terms of interacting with our fellow humans, and the world as a whole. However, ultimately, when one digs deeply enough, it also teaches us how and where we fit into the grand scheme of things and I would go so far to even saying the meaning of life. And all of that centers around our relationship with God, by whatever name one chooses to use.
If the end goal is to explain our relationship with something that you don't believe in, what is the point? Furthermore, having someone arguing against the basic tenets from within would be destructive.
Frankly Derek,

Your persistence on this matter is astounding. It makes no sense whatsoever. Think about it...

1) Would it make sense to try to sell anything to someone who doesn't a) believe in or b) need what you are selling?
2) And furthermore, does it make any sense to try to explain yourself to those who do not need or want what you have to offer?
3) To handle an objection from someone who doesn't need or want what you're selling makes as much sense.​

This is simple business 101. The target market is the target market. Anyone that falls outside this target market is not a target. The program offers what it offers to the target market and no one outside this range is a viable target for product and services. Once a person filters themselves out, they are no longer a target. To waste any effort upon a non-viable target would be nonsense. To justify the filtering to a non-target is also nonsense.

In other words, you're either a believer or not. The reason "why" is already provided therein. You simply are trying to make a bigger deal of this by continually asking "why" and not accepting the reasons provided. Chose and move on.

Coach
 

Derek Barclay

Registered User
As others have mentioned, Freemasonry teaches us lessons to guide our thoughts and actions. As others have pointed out, the lessons help guide us on how to conduct ourselves in terms of interacting with our fellow humans, and the world as a whole. However, ultimately, when one digs deeply enough, it also teaches us how and where we fit into the grand scheme of things and I would go so far to even saying the meaning of life. And all of that centers around our relationship with God, by whatever name one chooses to use.

If all people understood the meaning of life and the optimum way of interacting with the world and its' people, wouldn't that make for a better world for all? Why sell a cure when you can give it away? If the teachings of Freemasonry helped convince one of God's presence, would it not be better to welcome all, especially the doubters?

My lack of belief in God is not a choice. Freewill is akin to being a train conductor - yeah, you're in control alright. I tried to make it clear that I'm not making a big deal out of this. I still ain't. I'm not annoyed, and I'm sorry that yall are. I apologize.
I told yall to let me know if you wanted me to leave it alone. :) I think now I will.
 

NY.Light.II

Registered User
If all people understood the meaning of life and the optimum way of interacting with the world and its' people, wouldn't that make for a better world for all? Why sell a cure when you can give it away? If the teachings of Freemasonry helped convince one of God's presence, would it not be better to welcome all, especially the doubters?

My lack of belief in God is not a choice. Freewill is akin to being a train conductor - yeah, you're in control alright. I tried to make it clear that I'm not making a big deal out of this. I still ain't. I'm not annoyed, and I'm sorry that yall are. I apologize.
I told yall to let me know if you wanted me to leave it alone. :) I think now I will.

Lack of belief is a choice. It's not genetic; it is an intentional decision to place faith in something or not to. I respect your atheistic thought. But don't degrade by falsely claiming it is not a choice.
 

Derek Barclay

Registered User
Lack of belief is a choice. It's not genetic; it is an intentional decision to place faith in something or not to. I respect your atheistic thought. But don't degrade by falsely claiming it is not a choice.

I'm sincerely confused by this position. It isn't the first time I've heard it, and I often try to get at the core of what people mean when they say it, and why they believe it to be so. The irony is I don't believe it was your choice to think that way.

Everything about me - my looks, my desires, my thoughts and my intentions - they are all predicated on the events and environments that have made up my life. How can I choose to not believe in something? Again, I genuinely do not understand the sentiment.

I know I said I'd leave it alone, but your post seemed to warrant a response.
 
R

Ressam

Guest
If all people understood the meaning of life and the optimum way of interacting with the world and its' people, wouldn't that make for a better world for all? Why sell a cure when you can give it away? If the teachings of Freemasonry helped convince one of God's presence, would it not be better to welcome all, especially the doubters?

My lack of belief in God is not a choice. Freewill is akin to being a train conductor - yeah, you're in control alright. I tried to make it clear that I'm not making a big deal out of this. I still ain't. I'm not annoyed, and I'm sorry that yall are. I apologize.
I told yall to let me know if you wanted me to leave it alone. :) I think now I will.

It's very bad ! Bad that -- you are an atheist!
You're may be a good guy! But, if you don't believe in God -- you are not able to take -- "God's Grace",
God's help, God's power. When you're prayin'.
This is important. Fraternity is Energy. It has The Egregore.
If you are an atheist -- you'll break The Lodge Harmony, moreover,
you'll not be able to "feed" The Egregore by your Energy!
Regular Masonry is not for you! That's true!
May be "Droit Humain" is what you need! Good luck!
 

pointwithinacircle2

Rapscallion
Premium Member
Lack of belief is a choice. It's not genetic; it is an intentional decision to place faith in something or not to. I respect your atheistic thought. But don't degrade by falsely claiming it is not a choice.
I know that I should not be responding to NYL's post. The reason that I should not be responding is that the post itself is about God, and not about logic. And my problem with the post is not about anyone's stance on God, it is about the logic of the argument that is being used. Interestingly, I have the same logic problem with Derek's statement;
Everything about me - my looks, my desires, my thoughts and my intentions - they are all predicated on the events and environments that have made up my life. How can I choose to not believe in something? Again, I genuinely do not understand the sentiment.
Both of these statements appear to me to be predicated that on the idea that "I" have all the information. Or at least that I have all the information that I need to make the decision. To NYL I would propose the idea that a person is not truly making a choice unless they have all the information. If they do not have all the necessary information they are simply guessing, not choosing. To Derek I would point out that "Everything about me" is predicated on far more than "the events and environments that have made up my life". Both statements are based on the idea that the the person making the statement knows everything.
There, now I have offended everyone. Lucky me!
 
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