My Freemasonry | Freemason Information and Discussion Forum

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

your thoughts on the direction government is headed

jwhoff

Premium Member
Hey guys. Relax! The 'anglish and the French fought 100 years and waisted many roses before thinking better of it.

We've only been at this last was 12 years now. Of course, we'll be dead broke before 100 years rolls around, roses or not.

Of course, we've improvised a system where we don't pay for the wars we're fighting, the roads we're waring out, the debt we have ...

But ... after all, we are entitled!
 

jwhoff

Premium Member
The great inequalities that jwoff is speaking of is only possible when the rich lobby the federal government for loopholes in the tax code. Now don't assume that i'm saying we should raise taxes to make the inequality curve shift I'm most definitely not but the best way for this great disparity to be solved is through a complete capitalistic system. Throw out the current tax code for a flat tax of 17% or 15% and close all loopholes so all Americans pay that rate. Get rid of FICA and phase out Social Security and Medicare by guaranteeing all individuals who have paid into to these programs to receive what their owed and for those who have are still working stop them immediately from paying in and when they hit the retirement age give them their money under this plan current seniors will not be affected at all and everyone is paid. No more capital gains tax or death tax because we shouldn't punish individuals for success. Legalize marijuana and tax it for more revenue. Cut government spending in all areas and eliminate the department of education, energy, and HUD. Audit the Fed PLEASE!!! Repeal obamacare and let the marketplace decide prices. Everything mentioned on here can be solved if we simply remove government from the economy and reduce it to it's constitutional bounds.

Radical and unsustainable in a world of seven billion souls rushing to 22 or so billion within three generations. Which, without some form of population control is unsustainable in and of itself. Oh my! Ultimately, did we have a right to judge the Chinese birth control measures of the last fifty years?

KO2134's suggestion would work beautifully in a world of less than one billion, well dispersed individuals but no longer. Agreed, it is the perfect utopia we'd all like to see. I, myself, could ask for no more! Hell, I remember the satisfaction of playing with others and being THE LONE RANGER. Somehow I felt ENTITLED. .

Utopic; in that the only way one's true worth can be decided is when each person starts life on an equal status. With nothing and no strings to inherit from those who came before. Only then can they be judged on their own merits. Otherwise they are advantaged or disadvantaged by THE SYSTEM, any pure or static, devised economic system.

There are no easy or clear cut answers to man's relationship with his fellow man. There is no utopic economic form. There is only anarchy or measured agreement. We must now learn to live in harmony within this very real physical and economic environment.

For the learned mason, this measured agreement, or harmony, is known as equilibrium. Dig deeper and deeper into masonry and you will find that all is the magnificent natural progression and order of things set in motion by the GAOTU. It is the universal clock that demands change as we move down the timeline together to that "undiscovered country from who's bourne no traveler returns."

Fight as we might, we will ultimately bow to this universal force.
 
Last edited:

jvarnell

Premium Member
Jvarnell i believe your defense policy is a little off because i believe evil only exist when citizens refuse to do anything so allow those people to fight their own battles and let us mind our own business.

We as US citizens would not be here if the French had not helped us. We asked and they responded. That is what happen with us around the world. Germany and Japan excepted they are required by there treaties not to have army's of certian types and the we will have bases there because of that.

Right now I am going back and forth trying to explane the other side of each detail for local and foreign policy. I think when we start blaming anything on anyone but our selfs we become victims. When we start looking at our selfs as non-victoms we will stop blaming others for where we are in life.

Oh and drugs are not all bad if used corectly. This is where Ron Paul's ideas are lost on me alcohol slows cognitive reasioning but it will catch up. Pot stops cognitive reasioning and will never happen, and then there are the other health efects of low sperm count, bad lung problems and memory problems like onset of altimers. And on and on for other drugs. Alcohol kills the germs and parisites in drinking warter, beer is bread that will never spoil. Alcahol is the grain that will never spoil but give you calories needed for man to live on. I am not an advocate of alcohol but when we look at it to sustain life you can drink beer everyday and live you can not smoke anything and live without adding food of something else.

On beer alone scurvy is the only thing that may plage you then just need a small amount of citric acid to fix that.
 

KO2134

Registered User
good points Rick Clifton your statement is true and i will have to use it jwhoff my policies are only focused on a narrow area called america and not on the planet. jvarnell i am not necessarily saying don't help anyone but i believe we should be more selective of who we help. My point on drug use is the fact that if i am not hurting anyone else or infringing on anyone else's rights then by all means smoke away and i really dont care about alchol because it's already legal.
 

jvarnell

Premium Member
Interesting letter.
Iraq War vet pens ‘last letter’ to Bush and Cheney


http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/iraq-war-vet-letter-bush-cheney-tomas-young-154541674.html



What I have to say to this. The human tragedy of war is just that a tragedy of war. But the word lie's he uses is decribing that he thinks they purpusly misslead congress of reasions for going into Iraq. He dosen't know intent and I don't beleive there was an intent to misslead. Most of the data that was used to make the dessions to go into Iraq would have stoped feather intell and got opertives kill if the source was knowen. By being as public as the build up was it alowed Sadum to transfer any thing that made him look bad to other places. If they did not go into Iraq the legistics of afganastan would not have worked at all. Splitting Afganastan and Iraq is like saying it was it was alcida and not the taliban. who was paying a lot of amercan dollors to alcida and Taliban for what they were doing. Saddam hussein
 

Michael Hatley

Premium Member
I am less concerned with where government is headed and more concerned with where people's views of government are headed.

I see more and more people that I meet coming from a similar place as the occupy "movement". Folks who like the idea of wikileaks, who distrust the government from all angles, and are, for all practical purposes idealistically anarchists.

Not practically, because they like things like police, defense, roads, national parks and so forth. But idealistically in that their inclination on matters from education to taxes and a whole range of things comes down to "government bad" where "socialism" gets used quickly, and where they believe, in their hearts, that politicians from one or both sides are evil. Where they assume, without evidence, that every arm of government is rife with waste and abuse.

It is this "government as a cancer" worldview that has a real chance of exacerbating the ennui our youth for two generations have had with participatory government. So few people from Gen X and the Boomers are at town hall meetings and other municipal governance venues I attend that most granular decisions are made by septuagenarians.

I wish people didn't see "government" as a synonym for "socialism", which is clearly not the case - and could come to grips with the fact that the government is us. Made up of us, representing us, and for us. And I fear the current anti-government trend (which Gen Y is eating up, identifying with the wikileaks and other groups ) will turn off Gen Y from participating in government in a meaningful way for many years to come.

And directly I think this anti-government zeitgeist is fueled, underneath it all, by pessimism. A belief that we are in decline, a belief that government is inherently anti-liberty, and so forth. I don't think either has to be the case. But if our youth believe it, then it will be a self fulfilling sort of thing.

Just my take fellas.
 

jvarnell

Premium Member
I am less concerned with where government is headed and more concerned with where people's views of government are headed.

I see more and more people that I meet coming from a similar place as the occupy "movement". Folks who like the idea of wikileaks, who distrust the government from all angles, and are, for all practical purposes idealistically anarchists.

Not practically, because they like things like police, defense, roads, national parks and so forth. But idealistically in that their inclination on matters from education to taxes and a whole range of things comes down to "government bad" where "socialism" gets used quickly, and where they believe, in their hearts, that politicians from one or both sides are evil. Where they assume, without evidence, that every arm of government is rife with waste and abuse.

It is this "government as a cancer" worldview that has a real chance of exacerbating the ennui our youth for two generations have had with participatory government. So few people from Gen X and the Boomers are at town hall meetings and other municipal governance venues I attend that most granular decisions are made by septuagenarians.

I wish people didn't see "government" as a synonym for "socialism", which is clearly not the case - and could come to grips with the fact that the government is us. Made up of us, representing us, and for us. And I fear the current anti-government trend (which Gen Y is eating up, identifying with the wikileaks and other groups ) will turn off Gen Y from participating in government in a meaningful way for many years to come.

And directly I think this anti-government zeitgeist is fueled, underneath it all, by pessimism. A belief that we are in decline, a belief that government is inherently anti-liberty, and so forth. I don't think either has to be the case. But if our youth believe it, then it will be a self fulfilling sort of thing.

Just my take fellas.

You said a mouth full and point out what is in the bucket called government is a lot of deferent thing to deferent people. I am older than the Xes and Ys so I see the federal government only good for what was directly enumerated to it. And the state and local the real power. A lot of people think that lobbyist run things and this is only true to a point and its not really the money but the words they help put into law. This is because the congressmen don't know everything about every industry and sometime thing sound to good to a congressman that is bad for us and vise a versa. The government is only what we make it. When I was young I felt the same way they do but when I saw first hand behind the scenes what actually happens. You have to know the business or industry to know if what they are doing in the law is right or wrong. The dod-frank act sounds good but what they did is cost more money by causing more reports that will cost the US about 20 billion each year which the consumers will pay. it is also why you cannot get free checking in the manner you did 2 years ago. and on and on... Barny frank has never been in business and doesn't know how it works so he wrote without help for a lobbiest that bill. There are many other examples I can give you. But this is why I don't like government and not the same reasons the Xers and Yers do. they think that the 20 billion we have to spend to meet the law comes from a bad old corperations pocket, but no it is tacked onto products that we all buy. If the mean old corps. would just not make all that profit they could eat that 20 billion and not do new product development, medicine development, and pay there employees more money to retain them. All in all it is very complex but the founding fathers had it right I think.
 

Michael Hatley

Premium Member
And the state and local the real power.

Brother, do you, in your heart of hearts, keep up with state and local politics with the same veracity you do national issues?

In Texas, if you do that for a couple of years - meet the politicians, take on a few issues, stand for some elected positions, and work legislation in a serious way, then it becomes tough to hold onto that viewpoint and that is a fact. It is a great idea, on paper - the fed isn't helpful, states rights, etc.

Then you see the sorts of people who participate in local and state politics. And God help you if you have to deal with them on issues. On television, where most of it is hyperbolic coverage of a handful of polarizing national issues, it is easy to feel like you are smarter than the politicians. Often though thats just hamming for the camera though, they are bright folks usually.

Not so with state and local politics, man. Not just low IQs, but religious fundamentalists in Texas politics are a dime a dozen, good ol boy contractors/commissioners are in every county, and little old senile ladies gadfly city council meetings and make hour long meetings take three so often it just isn't funny. Shift power to the states and that won't change much if any at all - just those folks get empowered.

I hear a lot about state/local rights in Texas, but brass tacks almost none of those people participating in state/local politics with that view. And those very same people who talk about state/local rights are often condescending about their views and assume you would have to be ignorant to not understand the states rights idear. Sad, kinda.
 

jvarnell

Premium Member
Brother, do you, in your heart of hearts, keep up with state and local politics with the same veracity you do national issues?
Yes

In Texas, if you do that for a couple of years - meet the politicians, take on a few issues, stand for some elected positions, and work legislation in a serious way, then it becomes tough to hold onto that viewpoint and that is a fact. It is a great idea, on paper - the fed isn't helpful, states rights, etc.
I have the Texas legislature RSS feeds so I see thing as they are being worked on. The news doesn't cover anything really that is being done.

Then you see the sorts of people who participate in local and state politics. And God help you if you have to deal with them on issues. On television, where most of it is hyperbolic coverage of a handful of polarizing national issues, it is easy to feel like you are smarter than the politicians. Often though thats just hamming for the camera though, they are bright folks usually.
I am not in front but behind the scenes for some of it as a SME (subject mater expert) at a local level. It is very hard to keep my sanity because there are more people that say they are SMEs pushing agenda.


Not so with state and local politics, man. Not just low IQs, but religious fundamentalists in Texas politics are a dime a dozen, good ol boy contractors/commissioners are in every county, and little old senile ladies gadfly city council meetings and make hour long meetings take three so often it just isn't funny. Shift power to the states and that won't change much if any at all - just those folks get empowered.
The low IQ thing is what the media wants you to thing about the slow talking Texans so they can marginalize them and make the not effective. Just because some one talks slow and messes up the vocabulary doesn't mean they are dumb, but the media wants you to think that. Please read "rules for radicals" not as what to do but as what the media is doing to the low information voters. Think about the words "good ol boys" those are envious words used by the media to marginalize someone. The constitution was written with the power in the states not the fed. It was the progressive movement of the late 1800's that started the shift to the fed.

I hear a lot about state/local rights in Texas, but brass tacks almost none of those people participating in state/local politics with that view. And those very same people who talk about state/local rights are often condescending about their views and assume you would have to be ignorant to not understand the states rights idear. Sad, kinda.
I am not talker or writer and I even through up before I turned my masonic work I was so nervous. But I know what the constitution says. I know what Masonary teaches us and I am positive if we limit government control and enforce local laws and have the god given liberty we enjoyed in the past it will all work. I just wish I could be the front man instead of the SME. The front man doesn't always listen to the SME he should.
 

Michael Hatley

Premium Member
The low IQ thing is what the media wants you to thing about the slow talking Texans so they can marginalize them and make the not effective. Just because some one talks slow and messes up the vocabulary doesn't mean they are dumb, but the media wants you to think that. Please read "rules for radicals" not as what to do but as what the media is doing to the low information voters. Think about the words "good ol boys" those are envious words used by the media to marginalize someone. The constitution was written with the power in the states not the fed. It was the progressive movement of the late 1800's that started the shift to the fed.

Oh, I was speaking about my experiences :001_smile:

I'm plenty slow talking Texas drawl myself, and a good ol boy if ever there was one....that wasn't what I was getting at. But no biggie. You've got a thing about the media and whatnot, thats cool. Not like I care for it either. *shrug*

Have a good day Bro, gotta run!
 

cog41

Premium Member
We are headed toward financial ruin.

Are we headed to war with North Korea? Personally I think it is loud saber rattling by the little chubby guy in North Korea. His people and his army are hungry.
Although it is pretty loud and one "mistake" by one side or the other could cause a bad situation to get worse.
War is the last thing we need.
 
Last edited:

dfreybur

Premium Member
We are headed toward financial ruin.

Early in the thread was a post that the world is moving from national to corporate. To the extent this is true it breaks so many previous models many mistakes will be made. To the extent this is true discussion of issues using a national model are fruitless in the international arena.

That said go through history and name a country that did deficit spending that didn't result in a disaster. Since about 1948 the only years with a balanced budget have not been years of decreased spending. They have been years of such huge economic booms spending could increase and the budget still balance. But countries that go through currency collapses do recover from the disaster.

Should we as Masons discuss strategies to be proactive about these projected events in non-political ways? Be active as a citizen to try to stop disasters but also be proactive in some sort of investment strategy trying to stay ahead of the curve figuring they will happen ...

Are we headed to war with North Korea? Personally I think it is loud saber rattling by the little chubby guy in North Korea.

Unfortunately that's up to him not us. It only takes one to start a fight. When it happens either you're prepared or not but the choice to start fighting is made by the side that attacks not by the side that defends. Pray for sanity my brothers.

His people and his army are hungry.

This has never been a good combination across history.

War is the last thing we need.

http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/war/

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.
John Stuart Mill (1806 - 1873)
 

jwhoff

Premium Member
Beat the drum slowly. Glorification of war is a very common thing. It takes a stronger willed man to use logic and reason. In the end, this man of strength wins.

Don't be so quick to shed the blood of the youth of the world. It will come back to haunt you in the person of those who somehow survive the mental and flesh wounds. Awful things are learned in war. The participants become bitter when they realize the actual fruits of war. Look into the eyes of those who actually went through "the shit" verses those who only paint themselves as heroes.

Masonry hates war! Read the wise who led us through the past. What leg does this stand on? Try the steps of the Good Shepard.

Hold the lessons we learned from the Easter season next to your heart. Forget those worthless testosterone commercials and talking heads you see on television. They should remind the good mason more of the followers of Barabbas than those of the redeemer. Then look at the objectives of the zealots verses that of the redeemer.

Never look for the next war. The world is already weary. Soon they will know you to be Rome itself. Be quiet, speak softly and carry a big stick. Learn to share a little of the wealth ye men of entitlement. Then, maybe, the world will look upon you as a friend once more.
 

jvarnell

Premium Member
We are headed toward financial ruin.

Are we headed to war with North Korea? Personally I think it is loud saber rattling by the little chubby guy in North Korea. His people and his army are hungry.
Although it is pretty loud and one "mistake" by one side or the other could cause a bad situation to get worse.
War is the last thing we need.
The ruin is from penalizing those who want to invest and just give it with out return to those who don't want to pursue a full days labor?
On the Korean thing should we have done something about it when the chubby guy dad started down this road? (my self I do)
 

jvarnell

Premium Member
Early in the thread was a post that the world is moving from national to corporate. To the extent this is true it breaks so many previous models many mistakes will be made. To the extent this is true discussion of issues using a national model are fruitless in the international arena.

That said go through history and name a country that did deficit spending that didn't result in a disaster. Since about 1948 the only years with a balanced budget have not been years of decreased spending. They have been years of such huge economic booms spending could increase and the budget still balance. But countries that go through currency collapses do recover from the disaster.

Should we as Masons discuss strategies to be proactive about these projected events in non-political ways? Be active as a citizen to try to stop disasters but also be proactive in some sort of investment strategy trying to stay ahead of the curve figuring they will happen ...



Unfortunately that's up to him not us. It only takes one to start a fight. When it happens either you're prepared or not but the choice to start fighting is made by the side that attacks not by the side that defends. Pray for sanity my brothers.



This has never been a good combination across history.



http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/war/

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.
John Stuart Mill (1806 - 1873)

Yep.....
 

jvarnell

Premium Member
Beat the drum slowly. Glorification of war is a very common thing. It takes a stronger willed man to use logic and reason. In the end, this man of strength wins.

Don't be so quick to shed the blood of the youth of the world. It will come back to haunt you in the person of those who somehow survive the mental and flesh wounds. Awful things are learned in war. The participants become bitter when they realize the actual fruits of war. Look into the eyes of those who actually went through "the shit" verses those who only paint themselves as heroes.

Masonry hates war! Read the wise who led us through the past. What leg does this stand on? Try the steps of the Good Shepard.

Hold the lessons we learned from the Easter season next to your heart. Forget those worthless testosterone commercials and talking heads you see on television. They should remind the good mason more of the followers of Barabbas than those of the redeemer. Then look at the objectives of the zealots verses that of the redeemer.

Never look for the next war. The world is already weary. Soon they will know you to be Rome itself. Be quiet, speak softly and carry a big stick. Learn to share a little of the wealth ye men of entitlement. Then, maybe, the world will look upon you as a friend once more.

The way that you use the word war is powerful but it can also be use in many other way that are wise also in Ecclesiastes 1.8 you will see there is a time for war. I have looked into the eyes of some that have returned from war and I ask if he thought it was worth it, (he lost a leg) and he said if we are not will to help those oppressed people we will be oppressed by our own selfishness. This brought tears to my eyes because I feel I am here to help and not hide and keep myself safe.
 

JJones

Moderator
We are headed toward financial ruin.

Yep, I believe this is inevitable. We are repeating many of Rome's mistakes.

Are we headed to war with North Korea? Personally I think it is loud saber rattling by the little chubby guy in North Korea. His people and his army are hungry.
Although it is pretty loud and one "mistake" by one side or the other could cause a bad situation to get worse.
War is the last thing we need.

I think Kim Sr. knew his people needed an enemy to blame for their suffering but he also knew better than to act on any threats. I don't think Kim Jr. knows any better and I don't think he grasps the political situation or extent of the outcome that may result from the war he's pushing.

Don't be so quick to shed the blood of the youth of the world. It will come back to haunt you in the person of those who somehow survive the mental and flesh wounds. Awful things are learned in war. The participants become bitter when they realize the actual fruits of war. Look into the eyes of those who actually went through "the shit" verses those who only paint themselves as heroes.

I agree. War ruins a man. The longer he's involved in it the more broken he will be when he gets home. I don't think I've ever met a guy that was a better or more stable guy than he was before he deployed.

Masonry hates war! Read the wise who led us through the past. What leg does this stand on? Try the steps of the Good Shepard.

Hold the lessons we learned from the Easter season next to your heart. Forget those worthless testosterone commercials and talking heads you see on television. They should remind the good mason more of the followers of Barabbas than those of the redeemer. Then look at the objectives of the zealots verses that of the redeemer.

Never look for the next war. The world is already weary. Soon they will know you to be Rome itself. Be quiet, speak softly and carry a big stick. Learn to share a little of the wealth ye men of entitlement. Then, maybe, the world will look upon you as a friend once more.

True words of wisdom my brother.
 

jwhoff

Premium Member
The way that you use the word war is powerful but it can also be use in many other way that are wise also in Ecclesiastes 1.8 you will see there is a time for war. [/QUOT

Agreed brother.

That is precisely why we should always carry a big stick. Just not always be so willing to wield it.
 
Top