UGLE

[JM-MWPHGLGA]

I'm unaware of any reliable source for Prince Edwin

There's many reliable source and unreliable sources about many things. I think Prince Edwin and his father or brother has a big part in where the craft was really formed. I go back to the word "time immemorial" a made up word to fit a certain time period. It's deem a unreliable word because of the circumstances we have been talking about for months on this topic and many others.


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[coachn]

The 4 Lodges that formed the Premier Grand Lodge of London and Westminster were:

- Goose and Gridiron Lodge (which then became West Indian and American Lodge and then Lodge of Antiquity # 2)
- Crown Ale-house Lodge
- Apple Tree Tavern Lodge (which then became Lodge of Fortitude and then Lodge of Fortitude and old Cumberland # 12)
- Rummer and Grapes Lodge (which then became Horn Lodge, merged with Somerset House Lodge and then Royal Inverness Lodge, then became Royal Somerset House and Inverness Lodge # 4)

The operative phrase being: formed the Premier Grand Lodge of London and Westminster

The UGLE was formed as a result of two warring GL's coming together, one was the Premier Grand Lodge of London and Westminster.

 

[Glen Cook]

I believe Legends have to be based on some type of authentic story. In relation to the York legend that's something the freemason world hasn't paid attention to because we settle for 1705 and 1817. You mention you wasn't sure of how it was form, actually everyone's answer about that lodge was the same. Who gave them power to the craft? Where's their charter? But we still acknowledge them cause of "time immemorial". This doesn't fit right in my book.


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Yes, the craft has paid attention to this legend.

Yes, we have told you repeatedly there is no evidence of a charter for the original English speculative lodges. You fail to get past the "so what" standard.

 

[coachn]

There's many reliable source and unreliable sources about many things. I think Prince Edwin and his father or brother has a big part in where the craft was really formed. I go back to the word "time immemorial" a made up word to fit a certain time period. It's deem a unreliable word because of the circumstances we have been talking about for months on this topic and many others.


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"Time Immemorial" is not a made up term to fit a certain time period. It is a legal term that has specific meaning, depending upon the legal system that uses it.

However, it is also a term used in story telling that allows the story tellers to take huge liberties and tremendous license in making things up where no one can dispute what is conveyed due to the claim of "Time Immemorial".

 

[coachn]

...You fail to get past the "so what" standard.

A standard embraced, exercised and relied upon since "Time Immemorial".

 

[Ripcord22A]

Yes, the craft has paid attention to this legend.

Yes, we have told you repeatedly there is no evidence of a charter for the original English speculative lodges. You fail to get past the "so what" standard.

I've been a Mason almost three years now, I don't see what is so hard for people to understand that a long time ago some people formed a club, started to expand the membership of that club and in doing so started to make up some rules to go along with that club and how it could be expanded and who could actually call themselves members of the club.
Of course the first lodges aren't going to have charters cause there was no such thing needed at the time. Also there wasn't a need to write down what was going on in the club until fairly recently. yes true some lodges do have minutes dating back a couple centuries, but not consistently like we do now. I think minutes are more for GL then for the individual members. Yes true some brothers, my self included like looking at turn of the century and earlier minutes but most don't care what the lodge did some random Wednesday in 1896.

 

[Glen Cook]

There's many reliable source and unreliable sources about many things. I think Prince Edwin and his father or brother has a big part in where the craft was really formed. I go back to the word "time immemorial" a made up word to fit a certain time period. It's deem a unreliable word because of the circumstances we have been talking about for months on this topic and many others.


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Well, yes, there are reliable and unreliable sources about many things. However, the subject here is Prince Edwin. I'm not aware of any reliable source indicating this is more than a legend. Further, you claim that the legend has not been paid attention to. That would appear to be at odds with your statement that there are many reliable and unreliable sources. Which is it? Has the craft ignored the legend, or are there many sources, reliable or otherwise?

 

[MRichard]

Yes, the craft has paid attention to this legend.

Yes, we have told you repeatedly there is no evidence of a charter for the original English speculative lodges. You fail to get past the "so what" standard.

Does this somehow surprise you given his posting history? Lol.

 

[The Traveling Man]

I believe Legends have to be based on some type of authentic story. In relation to the York legend that's something the freemason world hasn't paid attention to because we settle for 1705 and 1817. You mention you wasn't sure of how it was form, actually everyone's answer about that lodge was the same. Who gave them power to the craft? Where's their charter? But we still acknowledge them cause of "time immemorial". This doesn't fit right in my book.


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So, according to your statement, the Hiram Legend, as well as the Noah Legend are factual too, right? If you believe that then you've forgotten what Freemasonry is, a 'peculiar system'....'veiled in allegory'.
And I'm not sure why it's so hard to understand that were no charters at the time because the practice hadn't been created yet. The Grand Lodge set the standard.

 

[Ripcord22A]

And really I think that the practice started because the club got to big to keep track of any other way. With charters ttheres names and signatures . Imagine back then when there wasn't a full time staff at the Grand/lodges, new lodge asks become part of group while drinking with a few members at the local pub, a couple of senior members say they join the new Lodge to get it set up, and the members present agree...Bam new lodge is created but they forgot to write it down so that others would know.....bring in a charter to the situation...dated and signed and if it was forgotten to be wrote down all that would have to happen is check those sigs and dates to BAM lodge is verified.

 

[coachn]

 

[MRichard]

Somebody always want to reinvent the wheel.

 

[dfreybur]

I believe Legends have to be based on some type of authentic story.

For the origin of Parliament it's almost documented history. In the Norse and Saxon traditions there were regional assemblies called "Thing" that conducted court cases and that also served as markets. Each region elected/appointed a representative to the national "Althing" annual meeting that served as a prototype legislature and appeals court and market. The traditions of both county fair and trial by jury evolved out of the regional assemblies. The tradition of Parliament evolved out of the national assemblies. Variations on this theme happened farther south named Assembly and Senate, names still in use.

This pattern was very likely mimicked before 1717. Each lodge elected or appointed its leaders. Lodges sent representatives to national meetings. We'd call them conferences.

 

[Bill Lins]

I always thought "trial by jury" came from the AASR 11th Degree.

 

[JM-MWPHGLGA]

So, according to your statement, the Hiram Legend, as well as the Noah Legend are factual too, right? If you believe that then you've forgotten what Freemasonry is, a 'peculiar system'....'veiled in allegory'.
And I'm not sure why it's so hard to understand that were no charters at the time because the practice hadn't been created yet. The Grand Lodge set the standard.

Listen I don't care about the Charters, that's not my motive that only came about as a thought. It's not a crime to think the way I'm thinking. Let's not be to mighty and not any earthly good because someone is so textbook savvy. For the gentleman who says someone is trying to convey a new wheel. So what!? I respect everyone's opinion so do the same to mine. My only concern is the start.


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[JM-MWPHGLGA]

For the origin of Parliament it's almost documented history. In the Norse and Saxon traditions there were regional assemblies called "Thing" that conducted court cases and that also served as markets. Each region elected/appointed a representative to the national "Althing" annual meeting that served as a prototype legislature and appeals court and market. The traditions of both county fair and trial by jury evolved out of the regional assemblies. The tradition of Parliament evolved out of the national assemblies. Variations on this theme happened farther south named Assembly and Senate, names still in use.

This pattern was very likely mimicked before 1717. Each lodge elected or appointed its leaders. Lodges sent representatives to national meetings. We'd call them conferences.

I think we forgot the script as Brothers. Post like yours is very acceptable. Hit me with facts or points thats relatable to the topic. All the others with the misconception stay out of it. Don't get frustrated because someone stand on something others don't believe in.


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[Glen Cook]

Listen I don't care about the Charters, that's not my motive that only came about as a thought. It's not a crime to think the way I'm thinking. Let's not be to mighty and not any earthly good because someone is so textbook savvy. For the gentleman who says someone is trying to convey a new wheel. So what!? I respect everyone's opinion so do the same to mine. My only concern is the start.


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But that's the point we are trying to make: you don't appear to be using the (text) books which discuss these matters.

And, yes, I'm reckoned to be textbook savvy

 

[JM-MWPHGLGA]

But that's the point we are trying to make: you don't appear to be using the (text) books which discuss these matters.

And, yes, I'm reckoned to be textbook savy

Using YOUR books only. No point is being made I have stated countless of times my main concern


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[Glen Cook]

Using YOUR books only. No point is being made I have stated countless of times my main concern

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So, to what books do you refer?

 

[Dontrell Stroman]

Question : If this has been answered on another thread I want to apologize in advance. I noticed multiple brothers refer to GMHA as a legend. In stating this are you implying that he is a myth ?

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