anti masonry

Discussion in 'General Freemasonry Discussion' started by widows son, Sep 20, 2012.

  1. Ashlar

    Ashlar Registered User

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    I chopped this up to show the "Christian" values of the E 5/11 EFMJ buddies of ol' Skip .

    I was checking out their websites on a lark when I noticed they were selling the Kentucky Monitor (along with many other states rituals) in CD format . This Monitor is still covered by copyright laws to keep people like Larry Kunk and his cronies from making money off of it . It has been brought to their attention that they are violating copyright laws , but I guess they think their tax free , anti-mason money making ministry scheme is above the law .

    And if Skip or anyone else says it is not still covered by copyright laws is dead wrong .
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2012
  2. widows son

    widows son Premium Member

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    Absolutely brutal.
     
  3. T.N. Sampson

    T.N. Sampson Guest

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    Not hardly. By your logic, the fact I'm on this website must mean I'm claiming to be a Mason from Texas. I'm not a member of the group in question, though they have blanket permission to use my materials.

    Partially true; however, the doctrine comes from those charged by GL law to promulgate it, as I have shown.

    If so, it is incorrectly done. Here's the key part of the definition from the online Masonic Dictionary:
    Since I have learned the work by legal methods, the definition does not fit. As it happens, the Masonic material in my possession came from Ebay purchases and from Grand Lodges themselves. You'd be surprised how many rituals and training documents you can buy simply by filling out a GL order form and sending in the required amount.

    Not troublesome at all. They have their ability to choose as well as I do.

    Yes, really. Here's the definition of the term:
    The quote you offered is an acknowledgement that I do not use a specific Pike reference. That is hardly as escapade.

    Yes, really. I've never met the man, though I am familiar with his work.

    Well, actually it was. The SBC came out of the Baptists who fought against slavery from their establishment in America in the 18th century on. They certainly did lose their way after the Revolution, but have apologized for it since. Not sure I've ever seen a Masonic GL apologize for the same thing, but I might have missed it. At least one GL has had a black GM.

    Not hardly. A group is considered a cult when they misinterpret a core Christian doctrine, usually at the impetus of one man. My beliefs are true only to the degree that they find clear Biblical support.

    There's no baiting. I hadn't realized discussions involving Masonic morality and answering questions asked of me is 'baiting.' My view is that I'm doing what everyone else around here is doing: discussing Freemasonry. Cordially, Skip.
     
  4. T.N. Sampson

    T.N. Sampson Guest

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    Larry Kunk was asked similar questions, and here is his response:
    The E5-11 site has quite a lot of information on the topic which you can find by searching on the word 'copyright.' Cordially, Skip.
     
  5. T.N. Sampson

    T.N. Sampson Guest

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    I don't rely on older material unless I can find support for it. Still, I've noted that Monitors don't change all that much over the years. I doubt whether a monitor can be outdated.

    Not so. All the materials I have are legally purchased. You may make the point that the seller never should have sold them to me, but that's on him, not me. You'll be interested to know that my most recent monitors, rituals and training documents come from the GL's themselves. I've received such information from about a half-dozen GL's just by sending in an order form, in my own name, with a check to cover expenses. Thus, I am entitled to them by GL decision. Cordially, Skip.
     
  6. T.N. Sampson

    T.N. Sampson Guest

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    Very interesting. So the VSL is the great light, furniture, rule and guide, and all of that? When a man takes his obligation using a Bible, it's still not mentioned by name? As I said, interesting. I've noted slight alterations in various GL training documents in the U.S. that indicate a move on their part to just the view you've noted. "VSL" is getting more usage than "Bible" in such documents, though I've seen no such replacements in ritual.

    I kinda figured that out fairly early in my Masonic research. We are in agreement: there is definitely no room for him there.

    I'd like to think it already does, though in a different sense. But don't such comments make you intolerant? Your GL says it welcomes everyone "regardless of race, colour or creed."

    In what way have I distorted Jesus' words?

    Same reason I post on other topics of interest to me. My actual point is that this website is not about discussing the varied criticisms of Freemasonry, so one would go elsewhere to pursue that. Here we just discuss Freemasonry. Cordially, Skip.
     
  7. phulseapple

    phulseapple Premium Member

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    Not so. You did not do the work to be entitled to own the materials. Submitting a request to a GL for materials intended for Master Masons only proves you to be nothing more than an eavesdropper and in my book that makes your word worth precisely squat. And, at least in NY, you need to provide your lodge information to request materials. Do share your source of these alleged GL request forms. So, by your own words, you bought something that in the real world of Masonry, needs to be earned.

    So tell us, what is your qualm with Masonry? I bet I know what it is, and since you have been asked multiple times by multiple members, do tell us what that qualm is.....
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2012
  8. widows son

    widows son Premium Member

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    Any holy text that a supreme being is at the core is used, and the word VSL is used in ritual. God is universal. As for my intolerance, I have not an ounce of intolerance in my being, such a statement is shocking coming from such an intolerant person as yourself. Like you said masonry welcomes all race, color or creed but it will exclude people like you because if your hostile and slanderous actions towards it, plus your religion forbids it. The are many examples on how Jesus' or rather Gods word is warped by fundamentalist view. Jesus said love thy neighbor. Now fundamentalism is against freemasonry, so if your neighbor is a mason, do you still love him, even though your leaders say he will go to hell and is evil? Who has more sway over you thoughts, your leader or christ?Here's a quote from Pat Robertson : "(T)he feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." –Pat Robertson. Here's some more :"I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good... Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a Biblical duty, we are called by God, to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism."
    -Randall Terry, Founder of Operation Rescue
    Quoted in The News-Sentinel, Fort Wayne, Indiana. 8-16-93. "In winning a nation to the gospel, the sword as well as the pen must be used." "Democracy is a heresy against God!"
    -R.J. Rushdooney, Director of the Rutherford Institute,
    which was the principal funder of Monica Lewinsky's
    legal defense, and architect of "Christian Reconstructionism.". "Not only is homosexuality a sin, but anyone who supports fags is just as guilty as they are. You are both worthy of death." American Fred Phelps leader of the Westboro Baptist Church. "With all due respect to those dear people, my friend, God Almighty does not hear the prayer of a Jew." American evangelist Bailey Smith. "AIDS is not just God´s punishment for homosexuals; it is God´s punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals." American Jerry Falwell founder of the Thomas Road Baptist Church. Warped! Skip, aren't we all equal in the eyes of the maker? By the fact that you follow these type of people, there is no possible way you can properly interpret any Masonic work.
     
  9. MarkR

    MarkR Premium Member

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    There's room for Jesus in a Masonic Lodge; the individual Mason can bring Him to the Lodge in his heart. We just don't require anyone to believe that the only path is through Jesus in order to sit in Lodge with us. How they define the Grand Architect is up to them.
     
  10. T.N. Sampson

    T.N. Sampson Guest

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    Yes, I did. I paid for them. Res ipsa loquitur.

    If they were intended for Master Masons, I could not have bought them. The GL's put no such restriction on them, obviously. I even talked directly to one person at a GL over the order and told her specifically that I wasn't a Mason but was just interested. The materials, including ritual, arrived shortly thereafter.

    Check out GL bookstore order forms and you'll get a good idea of who is offering what.

    I don't have a sudden feeling of apprehensive uneasiness about Masonry. Cordially, Skip.
     
  11. T.N. Sampson

    T.N. Sampson Guest

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    Sure looked that way to me. Still does, but that is your right.

    Ok, I see. Masonry would welcome me but you would not. As to my religion forbidding it, I think it more correct to say that my view of what is proper Christian behavior is more the culprit.

    Your original comment implied that I had misused Jesus' words. I see now that you meant that about others not about me. Thanks for the clarification. But I might ask this: what makes you think I support the people you've quoted?

    A common misconception among Masons is that all those characterized as 'anti-Masons' fit into one convenient description; thus you have a mindset about them that isn't really valid, any more than assuming that all Masons think, act and believe in the same things would be valid. That mindset allows you to assume things about me that simply aren't true and are without foundation of fact.

    I don't think you understand what fundamentalism actually is. I do, and none of its tenets deals with Freemasonry.

    To answer your question: of course. But if a man was about to get hit by a truck, would I not be motivated by that love to warn him?

    Christ is my leader, so that's an easy one to answer.

    We all are his creations; however, the Bible teaches that only those who follow Jesus can be described as children of God and can call on him as Father. That fact pretty much blows a hole in the Fatherhood of God doctrine, which is only correct if the fatherhood is limited to the creative aspect of our equality.

    I think all religions establish a certain separation between their adherents and the rest of the world. Jesus put the requirement for love more heavily on believers in their relationship to other believers than to the world at large. Masons restrict their teachings only to Masons, assuming they will lead the rest of the world into the light. I guess none of us believe in actual equality before God in an absolute sense. Cordially, Skip.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 6, 2012
  12. Ashlar

    Ashlar Registered User

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    So ISPs' employees in the call center are copyright lawyers now !? I did not know that ! ETA: So Skip , you are merely going to take ol' Larry's word for it huh , the very same guy that called his ISP and made claims that Masons were destroying his life by spying on him like he is that important ? Larry posted it on his web site SO IT JUST HAS TO BE TRUE ! It is okay to steal and make profit off of someone's material ? They can make any type of claim of innocence they wish but it still does not prove it to be true . I can rob a bank and when questioned say that I didn't do it , you know , kinda of like every other criminal out there . Of course he will not fess up to breaking the law , it IS for a greater cause in his own mind . This was brought up in lodge once when we were having a laugh at your types , a prosecuting attorney made the statement of this copyright infringement , but the GL does not wish to pursue it due to the cost .

    They are selling Monitors in CD format , that IS (or was if he stopped) a clear violation of copyright laws . I guess I may take some authors book , their intellectual property , place it in CD format and sell it then . Am I correct in this assumption ? I can call my ISP and ask them to make a ruling so if it comes up in a court of law I can say "My ISP stated that I was not breaking the law !" and they should reply "oh , if Roadrunner says it's cool then it is all fine and dandy ! Please do carry on selling this author's books on CD " .
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2012
  13. Traveling Man

    Traveling Man Premium Member

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    Re: anti masonry, Cowan: Defined

    Cowan:
    This is a purely Masonic term, and signifies in its technical meaning an intruder, whence it is always coupled with the word eavesdropper.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2012
  14. widows son

    widows son Premium Member

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    Well to be honest skip I am tolerant. Extremely tolerant, but in the scope of things, your ultimate goal is to see every lodge in the world with it's doors closed for good, which obviously every brother on this forum and the rest of the world would be against. So naturally those who are against, should not be welcome. Would you not agree if you were in the same scenario? What I'm trying to say is tolerance can only go so far. You can think I'm going to hell all you want. That doesn't bother me one bit, but I'd still tolerate your beliefs because that's your right, just as its my right to believe I can find values and morals in the lodge, just keep you opinion to yourself of
    Its a negative one. Again another reason i think you would be denied membership is because you are looking for christ in freemasonry, which you already know he is not a part of, which would make you think that it would constitute "unchristian behavior". Then again that thought would stem from your religious convictions, and if you interpreted your Masonic research properly you would find that Masonic behavior demands the highest standards of of morality and citizenry by it members, which in some cases exceeds the christian behavior standard. As for my implication, it was directed to you skip and here's why: correct me if I'm wrong but you believe in the literal translation of the bible. Word for word. Truth or should i say fact. Jesus taught the simple values of love, honesty, and belief in God. That's it . Now your church leaders are the authority in your specific faith, as there is no pope or central figure in the reform Christian sects. They preach the " word of God through Jesus Christ." They condemn freemasonry and others in the quotes I cited because they don't conform to their beliefs of "christianity," or " christian behavior." Now you being part of the faith that these people preach to, and they being the authority saying the bible is fact, which you believe is fact, and these groups are " violating" the word of God, you now use that's as means to analyze everything you come in contact with. If this weren't true you would not be trying to convert people away from Freemasonry or saying that only Christians are Gods children and nobody else. To kind of use your words skip: "A common misconception among most christians is that all those characterized as 'secret societies, past or present, good or evil' fit into one convenient description; Freemasonry,thus you have a mindset about them that isn't really valid, any more than assuming that all Christians think, act and believe in the same things would be valid. That mindset allows you to assume things about Freemasons that simply aren't true and are without foundation of fact. "Skip it works both ways. Again If none of the tenants of fundamentalism deal with freemasonry then why do fundamentalists condemn it? I'm glad to hear that at least in life or death situations you would be motivated by Christ's love to help someone in need although it's just the right HUMANE thing do, not religious. As for the Fatherhood of God, the Torah or old testament which is part of the holy book, which to you is factual and historical, states that the Israelites are Gods children and chosen people only. Who's to say that Jews aren't right and Christians have it Wrong? We know that Jesus was a Jew, and that Christianity would not exist without Judaism. We also know that the old testament said that man will worship God only, and it seems that Christians worship Jesus and the saints more than God itself. Also the Koran states that those who don't worship Allah will be punished, but reveres Jesus as a prophet and Christians and Islamist hate each other. Kind of an oxymoron but anyways. Now biblical and theological study has shown us that these three faiths recognize the same God, the God of Abraham. Although Christians and Jews share at least one holy text Islam does not, but the Koran features biblical stories, characters, and landmarks. These 3 faiths make up the majority of the worlds population, and if the same God is at the center of these faiths then I guess you can say we are under the Fatherhood of God. I think the reason for the separation of the worlds religious adherents is ignorance. Even though there is war and hate caused by religion, at the core, every religion is about peace, love for God and thyself, which I think we can at least agree on. Every culture has its own traditions and customs that are different, but that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be a level of respect. I think Some of the reasons why Freemasonry has evolved to the way it is, is because of that very ignorance, and it still strives to for equality, and tolerance in an intolerant world, Skip I think your the only one who doesn't believe in equality in the eye of God on this forum.
     
  15. widows son

    widows son Premium Member

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    Sorry in the Christian reform part of my statement, mean to say central governing figure rather than just central figure as that can mean Christ as well
     
  16. CajunTinMan

    CajunTinMan Registered User

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    Brothers. This man is just using our words for cannon fader. Just as the words of the Bible and the Constitution are constantly being twisted and misused by the misguided. Best just to ignore him. We know who we are. We have no need to defend ourselves.
     
  17. phulseapple

    phulseapple Premium Member

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    Skip - The only way you could have gotten a monitor and ritual from GLoNY is if you were in fact a Mason. These items are intended for and provided to Masterr Masons in the NY lodges. The only person who is authorized in a Lodge to request such items is the lodge Secretary. GLoNY does not have a bookstore where these items can be purchased. So, either you are lying now about how you obtained those items, or you lied at the time you made your purchase. Either way, you are not entitled to be in possesion of those items from GLoNY. You may have earned the money that you allegedly used to allegedly purchase said items, but you did not do the work to entitle you to the right to possess them. You ARE in the wrong, and you know it.
     
  18. T.N. Sampson

    T.N. Sampson Guest

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    That's true, but I did not obtain my GLoNY materials directly from the GL, nor have I ever made that specfic claim. They were purchased legally from a seller via Ebay. The GLoNY certainly intended them for use by the Craft in its jurisdiction, but their intent does not carry the cover of civil or criminal law, and has no sway over my actions. I'd guess the person selling them, if a NY Mason, might be subject to Masonic legal action, but that's about it. As I noted, mine was legally purchased; therefore, I am entitled to them. To say the intent of the GL is binding on non-Masons is neither logical nor a legally accurate view. Cordially, Skip.
     
  19. T.N. Sampson

    T.N. Sampson Guest

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    Yep. You don't have to if you choose not to. You may research the topic for yourself.

    And you took his word for it?

    Yes, as long as you don't violate copyright law in in the process. Cordially, Skip.
     
  20. Ashlar

    Ashlar Registered User

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    I will take the word of an attorney over Larry Kunk anyday of the week .

    You can not be serious !? Making a profit off of someone's copyrighted material IS VIOLATING COPYRIGHT LAWS ! That is one of the MAIN REASONS for copyright laws ! You can not be that blind can you !?
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2012

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