Homosexual and Bisexual Brother Masons

Discussion in 'General Freemasonry Discussion' started by Mason653, Jun 29, 2013.

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  1. JohnnyFlotsam

    JohnnyFlotsam Premium Member

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    No, thank you. That collection of scripture is one that you have chosen to use as your "rule and guide". It is entirely appropriate for you to use it as such, to govern your thoughts, words, and deeds. Nowhere in any Masonic teaching are we given license, much less, instruction, to compel others to adhere to what, to them, may be nothing more than an arbitrary collection Bronze Age mythology. Please do not mistake me. I am not suggesting in the least that you should consider it thus, but you must recognize that many of your Brethren have different beliefs. Masons are charged, explicitly, to find those things upon which we can all agree. That lets out any argument based solely on any sectarian dogma.

    So, setting aside sectarian dogma, what cause have we to label homosexuality as something not befitting a Mason?
     
  2. cutter2001

    cutter2001 Premium Member

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    The problem that I have with the opinions and beliefs of those that support homosexuals in the lodge (and in this very, very, very long thread) is that you are all very eager to substitute your own opinions and beliefs for the laws that are written in the VSL. Laws are written absolutes. They are very limited in scope, definition, and translation. Murder is murder. Adultery is adultery. Lying is .....you get my point. You can't argue those points. (Well, you can argue them, but just because you argue does not change the standard that the law sets and creates.) Now if you choose not to believe that the sacred laws are not absolute, then I suggest that you substitute your own written version of them at the next rite that you are the candidate for. I'm sure the brothers of the lodge, valley, (insert name of appendant body here) will have no problem with Bro. Blake's version of the Bible, Quran, etc. being used on the alter of freemasonry. Imagine Bubba saying, "Just what the hell does that boy think he's doing?"

    Unfortunately, every time that homosexuality is mentioned in the KJV of SL, it isn't in a very positive light. If you want to argue that point I'm not your man. I truly could care less who you, or what, you seek to know biblically. Just don't try to make your night time business my lodge business. Otherwise, the VSL that you became a mason upon should come into play. After all, you swore a solemn vow upon that sacred Law, and you did that of your own free will.
     
  3. JohnnyFlotsam

    JohnnyFlotsam Premium Member

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    Fair enough. Now...
    Your mistake is in thinking that all Masons are bound by your VoSL. They are not. Please grant your Brother Masons the same respect you demand and don't try to make your particular religious beliefs their "lodge business".
     
  4. cutter2001

    cutter2001 Premium Member

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    So Bro. JF,

    What sectarian dogma did you swear your oaths?

    I wonder if you have ever read Genesis 19. The better chapter is the one right before, but I'm sure someone as intelligent as you would never waste your time reading some arbitrary collection of Bronze Age mythology.

    Btw, love the Media Matters box for your signature.
     
  5. MarkR

    MarkR Premium Member

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    First, I've been discussing from the hypothetical. People have been assuming they are my positions, when I clearly have said "what about the brother who believes..." On your statement here, Bro. Stewart, I don't know about your jurisdiction, but there are very few things that are specifically spelled out in our bylaws as being disqualifying. However, if you're a thief, a serial adulterer, etc. we'd be expected to disqualify them even though those things aren't "specifically" prohibited in the Masonic code.

    This is an incredibly weak argument. God created man with free will, and evil exists in the world. There are all kinds of horrors that occur daily, and by your argument they must be what God wants, because he created them. What I'm saying is that the existence of something in human behavior is not evidence of the approval of the GAOTU.

    Now I'm certain that someone will prop up the straw man that I'm saying homosexuality is an evil in the world. That's not what I'm saying. All I did was point out the logical inconsistency of your argument. You say that everyone is a child of God (true) and that therefore all of their behavior must be because that's what God wants (logically fails in the face of free will and clearly repugnant behaviors.)
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2013
  6. widows son

    widows son Premium Member

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    "Just don't try to make your night time business my lodge business."

    • Not a single person on this thread has attempted to do that. Why does every homophobe think that all homosexuals have one thing on their mind?

    There will never be peace in this world because of those who are intolerant. What do you care if someone is homosexual? Is it killing you? I think if its not physically effecting you, then ones business should be minded.
     
  7. Bro. Stewart P.M.

    Bro. Stewart P.M. Lead Moderator Emeritus Staff Member

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    I think that there is certainly a fear of the unknown among the Brethren opposed to the subject of discussion here. I can envision each of them fearing that having a homosexual Brother in their Lodge would literally pervert the ritualistic works, and even make sexual advances towards the more "normal" Brethren. Sadly, no one here is going to be able to convince them that such will certainly never be the case.

    Unfortunately I do know first hand of how our beloved Fraternity treats this very issue. Make no mistake, the Brethren will stop nothing short of using tar and feathers to remove the Brother. I will not go into detail here. I can tell you that unless this person had deliberately told you in confidence, you certainly would have never known his sexual orientation, and by far was a better Brother and member of this Fraternity than most of us here will ever be, myself included. Yet a Brother did tell another in confidence, and thus was indeed removed. Now, WHO broke who's obligation.... This apparently does not matter and a different subject all together.


    Now all of the above being said, I need to clarify my stance a bit. I am a Christian and a Minister, and I did receive my degrees and obligate myself upon the Holy Bible as my VSL. I do not however obligate myself under someone else's VSL, nor as Worshipful Master will I force a non Christian to take their obligations upon a VSL that is not of their belief system as they are not bound to the same ideals or thinking. As an ordained minister, I personally prefer the New American Standard version of the Holy Bible because it's easier to understand. As a minister, I am open to the ideals of many varieties of religious schools of thinking and will not condemn a man or woman for being "different" in beliefs. I may not like what they do, but it is also none of my business unless they bring it directly to my personal attention.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2013
  8. JohnnyFlotsam

    JohnnyFlotsam Premium Member

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    The one that I have chosen as "the rule and guide" of my faith, just like you did. No. They are not the same texts, but each of us is no less bound to the obligations of the Degrees.
    As a matter of fact, I have indeed read large portions of the Christian Bible, also (keeping the list to the topic of mainstream western religions) the Tanakh and a few volumes analyzing and explaining the Qur'an. Mind, I've never actually opened the Qur'an itself. I don't read Arabic and I am given to understand that it can not be fully understood in translation, so I'm content to allow scholars more learned than me to interpret it. Then again, the same might be said of English translations of the Christian Bible and the Tanakh. But, yeah. I've done my share of studying various religions. Have you?

    BTW, your sarcasm is noted, and may I suggest that it adds nothing to the weight of your argument.
     
  9. Michael Hatley

    Michael Hatley Premium Member

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    I too am an ordained minister.

    I have met few men who have read the Bible cover to cover and do not see it as largely allegory. If a man chooses to take some lines literally and hold fast to them, without applying the lessons of history and society, and ignoring the fact they are surely doing so with other lines (from stoning women to death who have sexual relations prior to marriage to putting people to death who do not observe the Sabbath) - well.

    And if you can get through Revelation and continue take the Bible en mass as literal, then also, well.

    I suppose in Homer's day many believed Achilles really was dipped into the river Styx and so forth. To be blunt - mostly the illiterate who heard the stories orally.

    The literate saw the Iliad and the Odyssey as a a grand allegory with the purpose of relaying what a "heroic spirit" really meant.

    But anyway - I don't begrudge a man's right to take certain lines of the Bible literally, and apply them to their votes. I don't judge their character by it.

    Their wit now - if I am direct, yes, I will think they have less of that if they do so. And where this issue is ambiguous, if you think to your obligations - there is most certainly a bit about that that is pertinent.

    Every Mason ought to have read Ecclesiastes, they are the words of our Master.

    But look closely to his other words - the Song of Solomon.
     
  10. cutter2001

    cutter2001 Premium Member

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    What is amazing to me is how quick you are to attack a fellow brother mason on a personal level . The very quote that you label me a "homophobe" with agrees with your later statements. I don't care what someone does in the privacy of their bed room. It's PRIVATE. My use of the phrase, "night time business" was to show that as we are taught that there is a time for work, a time for family, and a time for lodge; a candidate's sexual proclivities should not be brought into the lodge. I was unaware that "homosexuals only have one thing on their mind". I do know that most heterosexual men DO have one thing on their mind.

    As to the truly intolerant. I think my Canadian brother has proved that word to its' very letter and spirit.
     
  11. Bro. Stewart P.M.

    Bro. Stewart P.M. Lead Moderator Emeritus Staff Member

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    I did not clearly see this post as a personal attack towards you cutter2001. widows son although using your words in quote, does not specifically label anyone as homophobic.

    If you note, I also quoted a previous post earlier... It was simply to use as a reference to start, not a personal attack against the individual.
     
  12. Mason653

    Mason653 Registered User

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    Turn with me to Isaiah 45:7

    7.) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


    Just saying. Everything has purpose. Even the most heinous crime. We don't know why things happen the way they do.



    /G\
    FHC
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    FLT


    Freemason Connect Mobile
     
  13. Michael Hatley

    Michael Hatley Premium Member

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    I'm trying to stay out of the way of the "homophobic" comment, but truth is I winced when I read that too. But then I went on to poke at men's wit - so I suppose I'm no better.

    But if we can set aside that stuff for just a moment and assume that under all of this that we love and respect each other, let me get at the idea of keeping our orientations private.

    I agree with that. I don't think it is something to be a topic of lodge conversation.

    What I favor is a man not feeling as if he has to live a lie, or be afraid of being outted.

    And I reckon any environment where a gay man is expected to keep his mouth shut about his orientation leads to that.

    I'd rather that they be able to be open about it, because otherwise it foments an environment that leads to lack of understanding and so forth.

    There is a difference between it being a non-issue and being a secret issue.
     
  14. widows son

    widows son Premium Member

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    May I ask then, if we are to hold disdain for homosexuals, what is society to do then? Where do they fit in society? If we are to allow that sort of thinking to decide how to be civil then every group will eventually be persecuted and be killing each other, pretty much what is currently happening in every corner of the globe today, but if we further allow it then there is no hope.
     
  15. widows son

    widows son Premium Member

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    I, myself am not homosexual, but I have two very good friends that are. I have known both since the 6th grade. They are friends as well. They, however are not attracted to each other, and their relationship is purely plutonic. Along with all my other friends, we all get along just fine. A good person deserves as much respect as the next, regardless.
     
  16. Roy Vance

    Roy Vance Certified Premium Member

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    Good and fair questions, Brother Dave.
     
  17. Roy Vance

    Roy Vance Certified Premium Member

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    Old phobias and old hatreds die hard, and the men who harbor them do also. These men tend to be bitter about many things in their lives, I've noticed from time to time. It all boils down to bigotry at it's finest, and I hate that. 'Nuff said!
     
  18. relapse98

    relapse98 Registered User

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    What exactly have you seen homosexuals doing in lodge? In the lodges I've been in, I've never noticed anything but maybe I'm missing the cues. I'm kind of afraid to attend lodge now.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2013
  19. Heart of Stone

    Heart of Stone Registered User

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    I'm going to try and keep it above a six Grade level.I was asked if I was a homosexual before I joined the lodge.And from my understanding its not acceptable in the craft, unless you keep it to yourself.No slang this time.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Freemasonry mobile app
     
  20. Bro. Stewart P.M.

    Bro. Stewart P.M. Lead Moderator Emeritus Staff Member

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    IT, being the question asked of you, is Not acceptable. You should have never been asked that question Because there is no CLEAR guideline to follow one direction or the other, and it is NOT one of the Investigation Committee questions.

    You must remember however, just because you were "told something" does not make it fact, or correct. I know lots of Lodges conduct ritualistic work incorrectly but have no clue just how far off they are until they are corrected or apply for Certification... Just because they were "told" that they were doing it right previously.

    You must seek Brighter Light...
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2013
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