Homosexual and Bisexual Brother Masons

Discussion in 'General Freemasonry Discussion' started by Mason653, Jun 29, 2013.

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  1. MarkR

    MarkR Premium Member

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    If we apply "judge not" in entirety, then let's get rid of investigating committees and balloting. Because we surely judge during both of those.

    What that says is that you will be judged by the same standards you use to judge others, so you should be very careful in your judgment. Essentially the same thing that is the lesson in the Scottish Rite "Provost and Judge" degree.
     
  2. rpbrown

    rpbrown Premium Member

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    Think about how we meet, part and act.

    Enough said
     
  3. BryanMaloney

    BryanMaloney Premium Member

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    Thus, if it is ones standard to make a lifetime judgment over a single act, no possibility of revision or redemption, that is the standard by which God shall judge, as well.
     
  4. MarkR

    MarkR Premium Member

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    You didn't read my hypothetical. I didn't propose a single act; I proposed a brother whose religion teaches that homosexuality is a sin, and the petitioner who is in a homosexual relationship. Thus, he is a sinner who is neither repentant nor trying not to sin in the eyes of the brother. I don't think you can think poorly of a brother who blackballs someone he sees as an active, unrepentant sinner.

    Then, it was stated that the bible teaches not to judge others. I was merely pointing out that if that's the case, then we should cease having investigating committees and balloting, because both of those are judging.
     
  5. LittleHunter

    LittleHunter Registered User

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    Before I joined Masonry, My grandmother (a member of OES) told me "You're going to meet all kinds Of wonderful people." But she wanrned me, "They're going to come from all different walks of life."

    During my investigation one of the committee members said, "Are you comfortable working side by side with Brothers who might believe differently from you be they Christian, Muslim, Jewish or Pagan?"

    Over and again it was made clear to me that Masonry is a place to overcome my prejudiced; not to practice then.

    If someone feels uncomfortable with gay Brothers, Muslim Brothers, pagan Brothers or whatever, it would be wise to overcome that and realize that these Brothers can be your best friends.

    No Grand Lodge is going to expel all their gay members or Mormon members or their African American members just because some MM's (many of whom are newly raised) don't want diversity in the Fraternity.

    If you don't approve of all the gay Brothers who have been and are contributing to the Craft then go and start an exclusive fraternity that's only for "your" kind of people.

    All types of people have been persecuted at one time or another. Masonry is supposed to be above all that. I'm blessed to have been able to make great friendships with People I once (unfairly) judged. I enjoy a richer, happier and more fulfilled life... And one that is more deeply spiritual... Since I opened my heart and mind


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  6. Michael Hatley

    Michael Hatley Premium Member

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    For me (and I use me, and I here to stress that it these are my opinions and that I don't intend to force my opinions on others), I tend to focus on what I am looking for as a member of an investigative committee.

    I'm looking for stability. Stability of employment is a real plus. Their social life only is interesting to me in terms of that "stability".

    In other words, would this gentleman be a burden to our lodge? Financial or otherwise. Are they either gainfully employed or in some way financially independent? If not, are they taking steps (such as school) to make that a priority? Would this man be able to pull his own weight in society? That is a priority.

    And, are they a moral man? For me, their sexuality doesn't come into play. I'm more concerned about things like felonious conduct. Would this man consider stealing from a lodge Brother or from the lodge? Would they lie to me or another Brother with impunity? That sort of thing. I want to know if they are honest.

    And, are they a man who takes commitment seriously? Very important to our line of work.

    Also - I want men who are open minded. Because we have men of all races, political persuasions and so forth who are Masons.

    Stable, honest, committed and open minded - those or the sort of men, that personally speaking, I want.

    How they worship, who they sleep with, who they vote for - I really just don't care. It is small stuff, to me. I want a candidate I can trust, who will take his obligation seriously forever, who believes in work, and who I don't have to worry about being a racist or some such. Match those? Welcome aboard, in my opinion.
     
  7. Aeelorty

    Aeelorty Registered User

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    AS mason's we are to judge not by our own plumb line in the investigation committee. If a candidate says they believe homosexuality is a sin then admits they participate in a sinful activity that is an issue. If that person says they do not believe G-d has made homosexuality a sin then it is a whole other matter. If a person believes that all other religions are going to hell then they must also believe those brothers who believe differently must be sinners also. Then our believe in religion tolerance is just a myth we tell ourselves to feel good.

    We are to judge a candidate on if they adhere to their own beliefs (and are thus bound by their obligation (it is a measure of their moral rectitude)) and what they will do for the craft (harm or help it).


    I have known enough gay and lesbian people to say that without a doubt they are absolutely the same as heterosexuals in faults and virtues. And by that I mean they are all individuals just like anyone else, each is their own person with their own attributes, faults, virtues and peculiarities.
     
  8. MarkR

    MarkR Premium Member

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    So then, there are no behaviors that are condoned by any religion, or condoned by the petitioner's own belief of what God accepts, that you would consider to be incompatible with a man becoming a Mason? Interesting.
     
  9. Heart of Stone

    Heart of Stone Registered User

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    Well I had my warning, I will no longer voice my opinion on this matter.But I must say whenever a topic comes up like this, things can get crazy.If my words offended anybody, it wasn't meant like that, I'm just real with it.Gone!!!

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  10. Bro. Stewart P.M.

    Bro. Stewart P.M. Lead Moderator Emeritus Staff Member

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    Everyone was indeed Warned on more than one occasion to govern themselves and not turn this discussion from a truer Debate form. Everyone was advised to keep personal attacks out of the discussion as well as restrict the usage of "slang" terminology that may be deemed offensive in the confines of a public forum.

    Post #6 (06/29/13)


    Post #73 (07/07/13)
     
  11. Blake Bowden

    Blake Bowden Administrator Staff Member

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    I don't care what your preference is if you're active and willing to help grow the Lodge.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2013
  12. Roy Vance

    Roy Vance Certified Premium Member

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    My opinion, which normally doesn't count for much, shut this one down. It has played about as much as it can without getting really ugly. Just my opinion, though.
     
  13. JohnnyFlotsam

    JohnnyFlotsam Premium Member

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    ...by your arbitrary standard. Again, it is entirely inappropriate for a Mason to use is own VSL as the "moral yardstick" by which he would measure his Brother. I mean we really don't want to go there, because if we did, I dare say that most of us would be fairly judged to be "unrepentant sinners" according to a lot of rather obscure Old Testament thou shalt nots.
    Now, that's most certainly not to say that, as Masons, we should not judge. WRT the West Gate, we are given strict instructions to do so. Those instructions, however, do not include anything like, "...and make sure that the candidate isn't guilty of any 'sins' according to <insert VSL here>".
    I will say it again; another man's "morality" is not something that we, as Masons, may judge, using our own, personally adopted set of religious beliefs. Such judgements, which are based on nothing more than an arbitrarily chosen collection of beliefs, are the root of much disharmony. "On the level" means just that, the common plane where good men may pursue "that noble contention..."
     
  14. Roy Vance

    Roy Vance Certified Premium Member

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    If we cannot keep it there, we should just keep away from the subject altogether. "Peace and Harmony....."

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 13, 2013
  15. Bro. Stewart P.M.

    Bro. Stewart P.M. Lead Moderator Emeritus Staff Member

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    Some times it is better not to hide from things, but allow calm and mediated discussion. This kind of issue like that of racism is never going to just go away with out thought and discussion.

    Some just need to learn how to conduct a proper discussion without the usage of slang, derogatory terms and terminology, profanity, slander, or name calling. Such conversation MUST be handled above a 6th Grade level.


    I will allow this topic to remain open for the time.
     
  16. brent

    brent Registered User

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    You will not make libertine a Mason.



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  17. Bro. Stewart P.M.

    Bro. Stewart P.M. Lead Moderator Emeritus Staff Member

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    In part.

    Libertine is "modernly" defined also as:

    Although you have "keyed in" on the sexuality definition, IS that what the Ancients meant?? I am not so certain. Considering the age of our fraternity, my gut instinct is more favorable towards #3 referring to slavery.

    To "loop" homosexuality into any of the other definitions would defer back to general morality. What may be considered morally wrong today may not be tomorrow and likely was not in the past. I give you Ancient Rome for example. Rome in its prime was full of things we often consider immoral (slavery, orgies, and yes homosexuality), all of which during the time period were considered moral and acceptable.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2013
  18. brent

    brent Registered User

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    I was instructed by past masters and PGMs upon my initiation to the EA. Dexter that the definition would be category #1. And as a past master myself this is what I believe and why I instruct.
     
  19. Bro. Stewart P.M.

    Bro. Stewart P.M. Lead Moderator Emeritus Staff Member

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    Interesting. Well I suppose one could make anything they want to from the broad definition...
     
  20. JohnnyFlotsam

    JohnnyFlotsam Premium Member

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    There is a certain logic to that, and to be sure, our Ancient Brethren made it clear that no slave could be made a mason, but still...

    The Old Charges read, "A Mason is obliged, by his tenure, to obey the moral law, and if he rightly understands the art, he will never be a stupid atheist nor an irreligious libertine." That rather steers us back towards matters of belief and the exclusion of atheists. I must note, in passing, that the Charge is not specific about which beliefs, only that a Mason must have them. Yes, I tend to belabor this point, but it is clear that this is something that a good many of our Brethren, even some Grand Masters, apparently, still struggle with.

    Moving back towards the topic at hand...
    Definition number one speaks specifically of "unrestrained" behavior, and offers the terms "profligate" and "rake" as further clarification. None of those terms speaks to sexual persuasion. They do speak to one's behavior, irrespective of that persuasion. In other words, the Charge is an admonition to not tolerate (in modern terms) promiscuity.

    In summary, I think we can say that an attempt to equate "libertine" with "homosexual" is, in a Masonic context at least, misguided.
     
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