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God v Science

jvarnell

Premium Member
Has any of the story been made up or replaced like NOAA did with weather data? Was the hotest day in recorded US history in the 80's or in 1936? If you don't understand what I just said get on your Google machine and lookup NOAA 1936 because you will not have felt the heat in July 1936. HaaaHaaa
 

jjjjjggggg

Premium Member
It would be a good one with the same amount of fact and any other movie.

The name of the movie is "God's Not Dead" starring Kevin Sorbo (of tv's Hercules fame).

I have a friend who was insisting I see it. He said it's based in a true story, the story listed above. I have no problems with stories, it's when they get passed around and people start claiming they are true without even checking for sources that bothers me. And not just religious stuff. I'm no fan of Obama but most of the crap people spread about him are based nowhere in fact. People are way too damn willing to spread misinformation these days with no critical thinking and reason. As Freemasons we should be better than that, at least I thought that's what we are about.
 

pointwithinacircle2

Rapscallion
Premium Member
I have read several versions of this, it is based on the straw-man fallacy. Basically both sides say "this is what you believe and here is why it is wrong. It is easy to prove the other guy wrong if you get to say what he believes.
 

BryanMaloney

Premium Member
Oh my God, Oh yes I said God this just point out it is faith in what data is excepted by one person may not be excepted by another but it makes it no less right or true. I have faith that next winter we will have an absence of summer heat. LoL

Who was the scientist? What was the institution? Is this little story an event or just a pretty little lie made up so some people could congratulate themselves on how smart they think they, themselves, are? Let me guess, the story is just a lie, and the lie is used to attempt to bolster religion. That's pretty sad.
 

BryanMaloney

Premium Member
Has any of the story been made up or replaced like NOAA did with weather data? Was the hotest day in recorded US history in the 80's or in 1936? If you don't understand what I just said get on your Google machine and lookup NOAA 1936 because you will not have felt the heat in July 1936. HaaaHaaa

Ah! I see! So, then, the Christian virtue is to point to someone else's sins and that means that the Christian is free to commit the same sins! Just pointing at someone else's sins makes a sin into a virtue! Adultery? Just point to someone else committing adultery and God will adore adultery! Murder? Just point to someone else committing murder and God will adore murder! Lies? Just point to someone else committing lies and God will adore lies!

In sort, the whole point is that believing in God is no better than not believing in God, since those who believe in God are free to live according to the lowest standards of those who don't. After all, that's what "somebody ELSE does it" boils down to.
 

BryanMaloney

Premium Member
By the by, I am a Christian. I just despise using lies in the alleged service of Christ or of God. They all ultimately serve Satan. If you don't care if lies are used in such a way, then why bother pretending to any moral code at all?
 

pointwithinacircle2

Rapscallion
Premium Member
In sort, the whole point is that believing in God is no better than not believing in God, since those who believe in God are free to live according to the lowest standards of those who don't.
Brother, I do not wish to upset you further, but I feel it only fair to point out the unspoken assumption in what you have written. If we remove the word since and replace it with if I am in complete agreement with what you say. However, using since paints everybody with the same dirty brush, and that I cannot go along with.
 

otherstar

Registered User
Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.

Truth DOES NOT MATTER to believers! All you have to do is cite possible lies made by purported nonbelievers, and that makes any amount of lying by believers 100% good, moral, upright, virtuous, and just!

"Truth DOES NOT MATTER to believers!" This is not logical at all! I'm offended by that statement to the very core of my being! I have a Master's degree in philosophy with specializations in the philosophy of science and Medieval philosophy. As a philosophical realist who recognizes the findings of science (at least those that do not contradict religious faith --- and there are none that I can think of off of the top of my head), and the conclusions of good philosophy (derived from our sensory experience) truth matters a great deal to me. If there were no such thing as truth then we cannot know anything at all (even language would be impossible)! If you are a Christian, is there no place for faith in your worldview? If so, what place is that? You seem to divorce your faith from your science entirely while I think your faith should inform your science as it did so many great scientists in history (Galileo, Copernicus, Newton, Mendel, and Monseigneur Georges Lemaître, to name a few) In many of your posts on this site, you place a great deal of stock in that which can be scientifically verified and hardly ever mention faith, yet the resurrection is one event that cannot be scientifically proven, it is something we Christians hold by faith! Faith and reason can, and should, coexist to the exclusion of neither.

For example, it is logically possible that the universe has always existed, as Aristotle thought. St. Thomas Aquinas agreed, except that Aquinas added that Christians believe that God created the universe from nothing based on Scriptural Revelation. This does not rule out evolution because it is possible to posit that creation simply refers to the origin of the universe and life from God, and not some chance event.

When I read the story in the OP, I was reminded of the argument that Aristotle used in the Physics about privation. That is, privation is a lack that something has and as a principle in an accidental change, represents the end towards with the change is moving (before being boiled, water lacks a certain temperature...that lack is the privation). In metaphysics, privation is used to demonstrate that God, as Goodness itself cannot create anything evil (even Satan is good insofar as he was created by God), but anything that lacks goodness to any degree is said to have that degree of evil in it: evil is the privation of good. That is one point illustrated in the OP. If you wish to pick nits about the rest of the article, go right ahead...but to infer that truth does not matter to all believers is, at best, intellectually dishonest.
 

pointwithinacircle2

Rapscallion
Premium Member
Truth DOES NOT MATTER to believers!!
It is the source of this idea that baffles me. I lived on the north side of Houston for 16 years and I feel that I have met my share of "died in the wool" believers (and I belonged to some of their churches). But I always knew that some of them were truly trying to be good people, even if some of them were (please forgive me here) ignorant, holier than thou, bigots.
 

BroBook

Premium Member
I remember years ago while I was still blinded before seeing the marvelous light, I was asked , what I really wanted my answered was "truth" period nothing else will do me.WWEA!!!


Bro Book
M.W.U.G.L. Of Fl: P.H.A.
Excelsior # 43
At pensacola
 

JohnnyFlotsam

Premium Member
Sorry, but the logical fallacies are just too glaring to let go. Not that it isn't a seductive argument, but the student should have stopped at "I have only my faith". Science demands that the things in it's domain be approached empirically. Things must be examined and measured to be "known". Heat, for example, is a thing we can know. It can be measured. It's properties are fairly well established. And yes, "cold" is the relative absence of heat". Making metaphorical comparisons of "heat" and "good" (God), or "cold" and "evil" (Satan) are dicey at best. There is no empirical approach by which we may "know" good or evil. We could, if we're generous with the comparisons' validity, still lean on the metaphor for illustration at least, but the story really went over the cliff when the student started in on evolution. There, he simply tells lies about the nature and observability of brains, and evolution.
Treating faith and reason this way does a disservice to both.
 
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ARizo1011

Premium Member
A science professor begins his school year with a lecture to the students, "Let me explain the problem science has with religion." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.

"You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"

"Yes sir," the student says.

"So you believe in God?"

"Absolutely."

"Is God good?"

"Sure! God's good."

"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"

"Yes."

"Are you good or evil?"

"The Bible says I'm evil."

The professor grins knowingly. "Aha! The Bible!" He considers for a moment.


"Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?"

"Yes sir, I would."

"So you're good...!"

"I wouldn't say that."

"But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't."

The student does not answer, so the professor continues. "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"

The student remains silent.

"No, you can't, can you?" the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.

"Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"

"Er...yes," the student says.

"Is Satan good?"

The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No."

"Then where does Satan come from?"

The student falters. "From God"

"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"

"Yes, sir."

"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?"

"Yes."

"So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil."

Again, the student has no answer.


"Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?"

The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."

"So who created them?"

The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question.



"Who created them?"


There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues onto another student. "Do you believe in Jesus Christ , son?"

The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor, I do."

The old man stops pacing. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?"

"No sir. I've never seen Him."

"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"

"No, sir, I have not."

"Have you ever felt your Jesus , tasted your Jesus or smelled your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?"

"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."

"Yet you still believe in him?"

"Yes."

"According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?"

"Nothing," the student replies. "I only have my faith."

"Yes, faith," the professor repeats. "And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith."

The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His own.


"Professor, is there such thing as heat?"

"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."

"And is there such a thing as cold?"

"Yes, son, there's cold too."

"No sir, there isn't."

The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees.

"Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units
because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."

Silence across the room.

"What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?"

"Yes," the professor replies without hesitation. "What is night if it isn't darkness?"

"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word.

"In reality, darkness isn't.
If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?"

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him.
This will be a good semester. "So what point are you making, young man?"

"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed."

The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time.
"Flawed? Can you explain how?"

"You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains. "You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure.


Sir, science can't even explain a thought.

"It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it."

"Now tell me, professor.
Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"

"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man,
yes, of course I do."

"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"

The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.

"Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?"

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.

"To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student,
let me give you an example of what I mean."

The student looks around the room.
"Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?"
The class breaks out into laughter.

"Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain,
felt the professor's brain, touched or smelled the professor's brain?"


No one appears to have done so.


So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain,
with all due respect, sir."

"So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?"

Now the room is silent.
The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable.

Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers.
"I guess you'll have to take them on faith."

"Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life," the student continues. "Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?"

Now uncertain, the professor responds, "Of course, there is. We see it everyday.
It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.

That brother was a great read. I will be sharing this at both my lodges! ;)
 

ARizo1011

Premium Member
Your a member of 2 lodges ?


Sent From Bro Carl's Freemasonry Pro App

In time ;) . The lodge I am a member of is Hialeah-Opalocka and we eon a masonic building where we meet Thursdays. Now there is also a wonderful lodge that meets in our building in Tuesdays, and ever since I became a member and was regularly initiated an EA I would always go to Hurricane lodge 401 in Tuesdays because I wanted to be more active. I just loved being involved. When I lived in the southwest FL area I to visited the lodges in my district while I was only a candidate. The reason was because I had lived with a 33rd• mason and he was like a father to me and took me every where and I got to see what masonry was like. Ever since then I try to be as active as I can without over doing it. I not I'm just a FC and can't do much but traveling helps me with understanding the work when I get to see the degrees preformed in different lodges ;) and of the fact that I walk into any lodge an the brethren will make me feel as of I'm home is just a wonderful feeling.. Knowing we have brothers all over ;)
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
Who was the "scientist"? What was his name? What was the institution? When did this happen? Did this all actually happen or is it just a conveniently made-up lie?
Just as the made up legend of HA, it's an Allegory. You either find value and truth in it, or you don't.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
...Truth DOES NOT MATTER to believers! All you have to do is cite possible lies made by purported nonbelievers, and that makes any amount of lying by believers 100% good, moral, upright, virtuous, and just!
So you believe that for truth to exist, it must be based solely upon fact?
 
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