God v Science

Discussion in 'General Freemasonry Discussion' started by Wingnut, Jul 26, 2009.

  1. jvarnell

    jvarnell Premium Member

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    It would be a good one with the same amount of fact and any other movie.
     
  2. jvarnell

    jvarnell Premium Member

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    Has any of the story been made up or replaced like NOAA did with weather data? Was the hotest day in recorded US history in the 80's or in 1936? If you don't understand what I just said get on your Google machine and lookup NOAA 1936 because you will not have felt the heat in July 1936. HaaaHaaa
     
  3. jjjjjggggg

    jjjjjggggg Premium Member

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    The name of the movie is "God's Not Dead" starring Kevin Sorbo (of tv's Hercules fame).

    I have a friend who was insisting I see it. He said it's based in a true story, the story listed above. I have no problems with stories, it's when they get passed around and people start claiming they are true without even checking for sources that bothers me. And not just religious stuff. I'm no fan of Obama but most of the crap people spread about him are based nowhere in fact. People are way too damn willing to spread misinformation these days with no critical thinking and reason. As Freemasons we should be better than that, at least I thought that's what we are about.
     
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  4. ej6267

    ej6267 Registered User

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  5. pointwithinacircle2

    pointwithinacircle2 Rapscallion Premium Member

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    I have read several versions of this, it is based on the straw-man fallacy. Basically both sides say "this is what you believe and here is why it is wrong. It is easy to prove the other guy wrong if you get to say what he believes.
     
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  6. BryanMaloney

    BryanMaloney Premium Member

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    Who was the scientist? What was the institution? Is this little story an event or just a pretty little lie made up so some people could congratulate themselves on how smart they think they, themselves, are? Let me guess, the story is just a lie, and the lie is used to attempt to bolster religion. That's pretty sad.
     
  7. BryanMaloney

    BryanMaloney Premium Member

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    Ah! I see! So, then, the Christian virtue is to point to someone else's sins and that means that the Christian is free to commit the same sins! Just pointing at someone else's sins makes a sin into a virtue! Adultery? Just point to someone else committing adultery and God will adore adultery! Murder? Just point to someone else committing murder and God will adore murder! Lies? Just point to someone else committing lies and God will adore lies!

    In sort, the whole point is that believing in God is no better than not believing in God, since those who believe in God are free to live according to the lowest standards of those who don't. After all, that's what "somebody ELSE does it" boils down to.
     
  8. BryanMaloney

    BryanMaloney Premium Member

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    Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.

    Truth DOES NOT MATTER to believers! All you have to do is cite possible lies made by purported nonbelievers, and that makes any amount of lying by believers 100% good, moral, upright, virtuous, and just!
     
  9. BryanMaloney

    BryanMaloney Premium Member

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    By the by, I am a Christian. I just despise using lies in the alleged service of Christ or of God. They all ultimately serve Satan. If you don't care if lies are used in such a way, then why bother pretending to any moral code at all?
     
  10. pointwithinacircle2

    pointwithinacircle2 Rapscallion Premium Member

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    Brother, I do not wish to upset you further, but I feel it only fair to point out the unspoken assumption in what you have written. If we remove the word since and replace it with if I am in complete agreement with what you say. However, using since paints everybody with the same dirty brush, and that I cannot go along with.
     
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  11. otherstar

    otherstar Registered User

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    "Truth DOES NOT MATTER to believers!" This is not logical at all! I'm offended by that statement to the very core of my being! I have a Master's degree in philosophy with specializations in the philosophy of science and Medieval philosophy. As a philosophical realist who recognizes the findings of science (at least those that do not contradict religious faith --- and there are none that I can think of off of the top of my head), and the conclusions of good philosophy (derived from our sensory experience) truth matters a great deal to me. If there were no such thing as truth then we cannot know anything at all (even language would be impossible)! If you are a Christian, is there no place for faith in your worldview? If so, what place is that? You seem to divorce your faith from your science entirely while I think your faith should inform your science as it did so many great scientists in history (Galileo, Copernicus, Newton, Mendel, and Monseigneur Georges Lemaître, to name a few) In many of your posts on this site, you place a great deal of stock in that which can be scientifically verified and hardly ever mention faith, yet the resurrection is one event that cannot be scientifically proven, it is something we Christians hold by faith! Faith and reason can, and should, coexist to the exclusion of neither.

    For example, it is logically possible that the universe has always existed, as Aristotle thought. St. Thomas Aquinas agreed, except that Aquinas added that Christians believe that God created the universe from nothing based on Scriptural Revelation. This does not rule out evolution because it is possible to posit that creation simply refers to the origin of the universe and life from God, and not some chance event.

    When I read the story in the OP, I was reminded of the argument that Aristotle used in the Physics about privation. That is, privation is a lack that something has and as a principle in an accidental change, represents the end towards with the change is moving (before being boiled, water lacks a certain temperature...that lack is the privation). In metaphysics, privation is used to demonstrate that God, as Goodness itself cannot create anything evil (even Satan is good insofar as he was created by God), but anything that lacks goodness to any degree is said to have that degree of evil in it: evil is the privation of good. That is one point illustrated in the OP. If you wish to pick nits about the rest of the article, go right ahead...but to infer that truth does not matter to all believers is, at best, intellectually dishonest.
     
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  12. pointwithinacircle2

    pointwithinacircle2 Rapscallion Premium Member

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    It is the source of this idea that baffles me. I lived on the north side of Houston for 16 years and I feel that I have met my share of "died in the wool" believers (and I belonged to some of their churches). But I always knew that some of them were truly trying to be good people, even if some of them were (please forgive me here) ignorant, holier than thou, bigots.
     
  13. BroBook

    BroBook Premium Member

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    I remember years ago while I was still blinded before seeing the marvelous light, I was asked , what I really wanted my answered was "truth" period nothing else will do me.WWEA!!!


    Bro Book
    M.W.U.G.L. Of Fl: P.H.A.
    Excelsior # 43
    At pensacola
     
  14. JohnnyFlotsam

    JohnnyFlotsam Premium Member

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    Sorry, but the logical fallacies are just too glaring to let go. Not that it isn't a seductive argument, but the student should have stopped at "I have only my faith". Science demands that the things in it's domain be approached empirically. Things must be examined and measured to be "known". Heat, for example, is a thing we can know. It can be measured. It's properties are fairly well established. And yes, "cold" is the relative absence of heat". Making metaphorical comparisons of "heat" and "good" (God), or "cold" and "evil" (Satan) are dicey at best. There is no empirical approach by which we may "know" good or evil. We could, if we're generous with the comparisons' validity, still lean on the metaphor for illustration at least, but the story really went over the cliff when the student started in on evolution. There, he simply tells lies about the nature and observability of brains, and evolution.
    Treating faith and reason this way does a disservice to both.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2014
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  15. Warrior1256

    Warrior1256 Site Benefactor

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    THIS IS GREAT!!!! Very, very, very good.
     
  16. ARizo1011

    ARizo1011 Premium Member

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    That brother was a great read. I will be sharing this at both my lodges! ;)
     
  17. Levelhead

    Levelhead Premium Member

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    Your a member of 2 lodges ?


    Sent From Bro Carl's Freemasonry Pro App
     
  18. ARizo1011

    ARizo1011 Premium Member

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    In time ;) . The lodge I am a member of is Hialeah-Opalocka and we eon a masonic building where we meet Thursdays. Now there is also a wonderful lodge that meets in our building in Tuesdays, and ever since I became a member and was regularly initiated an EA I would always go to Hurricane lodge 401 in Tuesdays because I wanted to be more active. I just loved being involved. When I lived in the southwest FL area I to visited the lodges in my district while I was only a candidate. The reason was because I had lived with a 33rd• mason and he was like a father to me and took me every where and I got to see what masonry was like. Ever since then I try to be as active as I can without over doing it. I not I'm just a FC and can't do much but traveling helps me with understanding the work when I get to see the degrees preformed in different lodges ;) and of the fact that I walk into any lodge an the brethren will make me feel as of I'm home is just a wonderful feeling.. Knowing we have brothers all over ;)
     
  19. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

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    Just as the made up legend of HA, it's an Allegory. You either find value and truth in it, or you don't.
     
  20. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

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    So you believe that for truth to exist, it must be based solely upon fact?
     

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