Calling all historians

[MarkR]

So What! Some guy joined a stonecraft lodge so that he could pay them money to eat, drink, sing and talk and who no intention of learning the stonecraft profession.

Back to, so what! Four lodges planned to have quarterly dinner parties so that they could get together and eat, drink, sing and talk every 3 month that have nothing to do with stonecraft activities.

Of course, I should have known that you'd dismiss anything that doesn't accord with your view that anything prior to 1717 was just "stonecraft" and eating and drinking, and since then it's been a dramatic society.

At least one of the four "time immemorial" lodges that formed the Premier Grand Lodge had very few stonemason members. The Lodge of Edinburgh (Mary's Chapel) records FAR predate 1717. Yeah, I know. They just "changed their business model" causing high-born men of learning to want to hang around with stonemasons.

 

[MarkR]

The problem is proving that the documents are in fact old. with the tech of today you man make everything seem old. I watch this show call Barnwood Builders. This company dismantles old log cabins and repurposes them in to new log buildings. but they keep the old look of the log. one of the logs from a building was bad, they had a spare log from another job they had done but it was too wide, so they cut the middle out of it and attached the two halves back together making the log look like it came from the same house.....

And the technology of today is equally adept at discovering the fakes.

 

[coachn]

Of course, I should have known that you'd dismiss anything that doesn't accord with your view that anything prior to 1717 was just "stonecraft" and eating and drinking, and since then it's been a dramatic society.

Yes. I agree with you. You should have.

At least one of the four "time immemorial" lodges that formed the Premier Grand Lodge had very few stonemason members.

I am so glad that you agree. Lore is not history. We are a theatrical society. We use Stonecraft lore and symbols in our plays. There was a transition from Stonecraft to theater in these lodges. That does not mean that we are a speculative version of Stonecraft. It just means that we use resources from them for our inspirations (and scripts). I shall continue to be suspicious of any claim that claims that "Freemasonry" has ancient roots other than the theatrical tradition, of which some of these "stonecraft" lodges did take from the Mystery play days.

The Lodge of Edinburgh (Mary's Chapel) records FAR predate 1717. Yeah, I know. They just "changed their business model" causing high-born men of learning to want to hang around with stonemasons.

Exactly! Once again. I am glad that you agree.

 

[Bloke]

..We are a theatrical society...

I'm with James - theatre might be part of what we do, but (for me) calling us a theatrical society is akin to calling the Catholic Church a theatrical society because of the words and actions in a Mass as scripted.

 

[coachn]

I'm with James - theatre might be part of what we do, but (for me) calling us a theatrical society is akin to calling the Catholic Church a theatrical society because of the words and actions in a Mass as scripted.

Well, they are, are they not?

 

[Bloke]

Well, they are, are they not?

I think they are more akin to an educational than theatrical organisation focusing on adopting and practicing the moral lessons taught not just within the degrees, but by the good (and bad) examples provided by others in your life, particularity Freemasons within and without the lodge. They also offer mutual support beyond a theatrical troupe and create duties and obligations beyond a theatrical troupe.

They also work with a very narrow set of scripts; mind you, we do seem to share one element particularly with theatrical troupes, we're subject to a lot of critics' opinions both within and without !

 

[Ripcord22A]

.

for example noticing the atmosphere in the temple suddenly changing during the ritual when on previous occasions the same ritual event produced no change.

Ummm...nope never have I or anyone ive spoken.with personally have experienced these things...there is however a mega cult masquerading as a church called Bethel in my home town that speaks of things like this in their ceremonies. They also hold "healings" that people pay them for even though nothing has actually ever been healed



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[Ripcord22A]

One of the dimensions of Freemasonry is theatrical but arguably there are many more dimensions.
.

Nope. As coach says Freemasonry is what we do in the lodge, the degrees, openings closings ect ect. Thats all just scripted playacting. Masonry is what u do wothin ur self




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[coachn]

I think they are more akin to an educational than theatrical organisation focusing on adopting and practicing the moral lessons taught not just within the degrees, but by the good (and bad) examples provided by others in your life, particularity Freemasons within and without the lodge. They also offer mutual support beyond a theatrical troupe and create duties and obligations beyond a theatrical troupe.

They also work with a very narrow set of scripts; mind you, we do seem to share one element particularly with theatrical troupes, we're subject to a lot of critics' opinions both within and without !

This is all possible, but, unfortunately, only when the teachers know what they are doing. Most do not.

What you wrote is the intention, however, not many know this intention either. Although, they do give it a lot of lip service claiming that it is.

 

[Bloke]

This is all possible, but, unfortunately, only when the teachers know what they are doing. Most do not.

What you wrote is the intention, however, not many know this intention either. Although, they do give it a lot of lip service claiming that it is.

Well, if it is to be, it's up to me...

 

[Ressam]

Since Masonry is a science there must be a way to test that proposition.

So what experiments might we conduct?

Science? What "science"? Social science? Who told that? Could you, please, explain that lil' bit more?
Albert Mackey says that -- "Freemasonry is The Institution". IMHO, very complicated "institution". Like a labyrinth.

 

[coachn]

Well, if it is to be, it's up to me...

Without any doubt of mind in me whatsoever!

 

[coachn]

Albert Mackey says that -- "Freemasonry is The Institution". ...

Bold claim. Cite the source of his quote.

 

[coachn]

Since Masonry is a science there must be a way to test that proposition.

Must?

So what experiments might we conduct?

What do you propose?

 

[Bloke]

Science? What "science"? Social science? Who told that? Could you, please, explain that lil' bit more?

Ressam, no one will explain it to you. To a Freemason, the statement is well understood, albeit with different meanings, but they need no explanation to the Initiated .

 

[Ripcord22A]

Since Masonry is a science there must be a way to test that proposition.

So what experiments might we conduct?

I am a recruiter and they say there is an Art and a Science to it. The science is looking at the reports and trends and doing what those things show....however just because it is a science doesn't mean there is a way to prove things. For instance, looking at one of my reports shows that the majority of enlistments comes from zip code 12345, so I should focus my effort on 12345 however that area is a rural area, no place that kids hang out or schools within it, no way for me to actually focus my efforts in that area. so the science is flawed. Just like recruiting Freemasonry is not a true science. You can make all the hypothesis that you want but there is no way to prove any of it. Like you talk about the WOOWOO stuff that you have experienced in your lodge I cant prove that you didn't experience them and you cant prove you did. The only way I could prove that you didn't was to get you diagnosed with schizophrenia or something like that, but then that would also prove that you did experience them.....IJS

 

[coachn]

I am a recruiter and they say there is an Art and a Science to it. The science is looking at the reports and trends and doing what those things show....however just because it is a science doesn't mean there is a way to prove things. For instance, looking at one of my reports shows that the majority of enlistments comes from zip code 12345, so I should focus my effort on 12345 however that area is a rural area, no place that kids hang out or schools within it, no way for me to actually focus my efforts in that area. so the science is flawed. Just like recruiting Freemasonry is not a true science. You can make all the hypothesis that you want but there is no way to prove any of it. Like you talk about the WOOWOO stuff that you have experienced in your lodge I cant prove that you didn't experience them and you cant prove you did. The only way I could prove that you didn't was to get you diagnosed with schizophrenia or something like that, but then that would also prove that you did experience them.....IJS

I go one step further. Does "Freemasonry" ...

1) teach, use and espouse the Scientific Method and do so progressively so that all who join have an opportunity to learn and apply it "masterfully" in their lives,

OR

2) does it teach only enough acting and management fundamentals to keep the organization operating pretty much as it has for the last 300 or so years with very little change that hasn't been driven by outside forces?

 

[Ripcord22A]

Ill take number 2 for 200 coach

 

[coachn]

Ill take number 2 for 200 coach

LOL! It doesn't take a rocket surgeon or a brain scientist to see what is hidden in plain sight. It merely takes someone trained in seeing past the rubbish of one's temple.

 

[dfreybur]

IFor instance, looking at one of my reports shows that the majority of enlistments comes from zip code 12345, so I should focus my effort on 12345 however that area is a rural area, no place that kids hang out or schools within it, no way for me to actually focus my efforts in that area.

Excellent! Good recruiting from Schenectady, NY! Zip code 12345 is one of the places I've traveled for work. ;^)