Calling all historians

[dfreybur]

It doesn't take a rocket surgeon or a brain scientist to see what is hidden in plain sight. It merely takes someone trained in seeing past the rubbish of one's temple.

Right. We ARE a theatrical society that teaches the content of degrees. We are not JUST a theatrical society.

There are some who only learn the content of the degrees. When you point there are dogs who sniff the tip of your finger.

There are some who learn from the symbolism of the degrees. When you point there are dogs who rush the direction your hand moved.

Among men there is as wide a variation in the reaction to our degrees as there is among dogs as wide a variation in the reaction to pointing.

 

[Ripcord22A]

Excellent! Good recruiting from Schenectady, NY! Zip code 12345 is one of the places I've traveled for work. ;^)

BWHAHAHAHAHAHA...I didn't know that was a real zip. I was just making one up for the example!

 

[Ripcord22A]

Right. We ARE a theatrical society that teaches the content of degrees. We are not JUST a theatrical society.

There are some who only learn the content of the degrees. When you point there are dogs who sniff the tip of your finger.

There are some who learn from the symbolism of the degrees. When you point there are dogs who rush the direction your hand moved.

Among men there is as wide a variation in the reaction to our degrees as there is among dogs as wide a variation in the reaction to pointing.

I would argue that as an organization we don't teach anything other then the content of the degrees. True, every once in a while (more so in some than others) a brother will give a presentation on something about Freemasonry but as @coach said...it teaches only enough acting and management fundamentals to keep the organization operating pretty much as it has for the last 300 or so years with very little change that hasn't been driven by outside forces. It is up to the individual Freemason to realize that there is more to the degrees then getting partially undressed and repetitively answering questions and learning a few words and hand shakes. it took me over a year as a Freemason and moving to New mexico and visiting a lodge here and then visiting the lodge that I eventually joined to realize that there is more to it then that! Not everyone has the luxury that I do, and that you have had of being exposed to multiple lodges from multiple jurisdictions!

 

[dfreybur]

I would argue that as an organization we don't teach anything other then the content of the degrees.

That's Coach Nagy's distinction between the organization that is Freemasonry and the personal practice that is Masonry. The idea puts a pins on what the word "we" means in your sentence. The word becomes blurred. When is a Brother a part of that "we" that is organizational and when is he a part of the other "we" that is personal.

It is up to the individual Freemason to realize that there is more to the degrees then getting partially undressed and repetitively answering questions and learning a few words and hand shakes. it took me over a year as a Freemason and moving to New mexico and visiting a lodge here and then visiting the lodge that I eventually joined to realize that there is more to it then that! Not everyone has the luxury that I do, and that you have had of being exposed to multiple lodges from multiple jurisdictions!

Yet I was searching for symbolic meaning in our degrees long before I saw variation. It's something I'd learned to look for long before I petitioned.

 

[dfreybur]

BWHAHAHAHAHAHA...I didn't know that was a real zip. I was just making one up for the example!

Don't go to zip code 12345 on a windy day in the winter! It felt like I froze my nuts off and it's not an experience I recommend to others.

 

[Ripcord22A]

That's Coach Nagy's distinction between the organization that is Freemasonry and the personal practice that is Masonry. The idea puts a pins on what the word "we" means in your sentence. The word becomes blurred. When is a Brother a part of that "we" that is organizational and when is he a part of the other "we" that is personal.

The day he is initiated he is part of the organizational. The day he looks for more and tries to pass his knowledge on to others he becomes the other "we"

Yet I was searching for symbolic meaning in our degrees long before I saw variation. It's something I'd learned to look for long before I petitioned.

And you can thank who ever it is that taught you that, for that. not everyone realizes it....sometimes ever!

 

[coachn]

Right. We ARE a theatrical society that teaches the content of degrees.

I disagree (about the teaching aspect of your quote). Most Freemasonic Lodges share the content of the degrees through theatrical performance and theatrical lecture. They don't teach the content. If they did, there would be directed and profound discussion and members would not have a bunch of fabricated nonsense stuck between their ears that is nothing but misunderstood dogma that relates to theatrical allegorical based lessons never learned, much less understood.

We are not JUST a theatrical society.

Where have I said that we are "JUST a theatrical society"?

 

[coachn]

That's Coach Nagy's distinction between the organization that is Freemasonry and the personal practice that is Masonry. The idea puts a pins on what the word "we" means in your sentence. The word becomes blurred. When is a Brother a part of that "we" that is organizational and when is he a part of the other "we" that is personal.

Our Society is Freemasonic. It takes the form of an organization that practices Freemasonry as it has been adopted by its jurisdiction. It is fundamentally a theatrical society that practices arena style theater for moral purposes. It teaches though alternative-reality total-immersion role-playing. It has no support system that performs quality control on the moral lessons it purports to teach. In some jurisdictions, it has only a quality control system in place that tests a candidate's ability to learn a script and that script is rigidly enforced. I am part of that "we".

The men within and without that society who Build are Masonic in nature. They practice Masonry and it is one founded upon Building. As applied to humans, it is Building better men, family, relationships, society, country and world. I am a part of that "we". It is personal and it is also extremely social.

 

[Bloke]

I disagree (about the teaching aspect of your quote). Most Freemasonic Lodges share the content of the degrees through theatrical performance and theatrical lecture. They don't teach the content. If they did, there would be directed and profound discussion ....

Aren't we trying to do that very thing being members here - discuss and learn outside the degree script ? Aren't we attempting that very thing in that thread ?

I've never been involved in a Craft Lodge here which, at some point in its calendar during a tyled lodge, did not put aside some time to discuss the contents of the degrees in some form. We have a great tool for teaching and exploring the content, beyond just learning ritual, we have wine ! At 2 am, after a couple of bottles, that's when I've had some of my best discussions on Freemasonry, but every initiate here must pass through a Masonic Advancement Program (MAP) - most of it is just explanatory, but it also invites discussion. MAP3s held after a third degree can be long ! Those informal meetings over drinks long into the night often become philosophical and animated. I love them

 

[coachn]

Aren't we trying to do that very thing being members here - discuss and learn outside the degree script ? Aren't we attempting that very thing in that thread ?

Yes, but this is outside the organization. The organization is not doing this. We are doing this on our own because the organization and its systems don't provide it for us. We MUST forage on our own.

I've never been involved in a Craft Lodge here which, at some point in its calendar during a tyled lodge, did not put aside some time to discuss the contents of the degrees in some form. We have a great tool for teaching and exploring the content, beyond just learning ritual, we have wine ! At 2 am, after a couple of bottles, that's when I've had some of my best discussions on Freemasonry, but every initiate here must pass through a Masonic Advancement Program (MAP) - most of it is just explanatory, but it also invites discussion. MAP3s held after a third degree can be long ! Those informal meetings over drinks long into the night often become philosophical and animated. I love them

Informal? Are they not part of your official designated and designed Freemasonic System?

 

[Bloke]

Yes, but this is outside the organization. The organization is not doing this. We are doing this on our own because the organization and its systems don't provide it for us. We MUST forage on our own.

Speaking for my lodges, getting together outside lodge is a critical activity of the lodge and only possible because the organization exists.... yet, even so, at every meeting we have dinner, and there is formal and informal discussion at those dinners..

Informal? Are they not part of your official designated and designed Freemasonic System?

Informal discussion is included on the agenda within by discretion of the Master - but sometimes it just happens at the prompting of someone in attendance.. sometimes it happens in our South (read Festive Board) - we always have a meal after lodge - sometimes while the smokers are out smoking, on the stairs on the way down from lodge.

They key idea is, whether in lodge, whether after in the South before the Tyler's Toast, whether after the tyler's toast (not unusual to see 5-6 of use still present on lodge night after the South has concluded, whether in the pub as a lodge (like last Saturday night), whether in the pub, a home, on the street, in a car etc etc gathered with Freemasons, the organization brings us together and gives us a paradigm to converse in

 

[coachn]

Speaking for my lodges, getting together outside lodge is a critical activity of the lodge and only possible because the organization exists.... yet, even so, at every meeting we have dinner, and there is formal and informal discussion at those dinners..
...
Informal discussion is included on the agenda within by discretion of the Master - but sometimes it just happens at the prompting of someone in attendance.. sometimes it happens in our South (read Festive Board) - we always have a meal after lodge - sometimes while the smokers are out smoking, on the stairs on the way down from lodge.

They key idea is, whether in lodge, whether after in the South before the Tyler's Toast, whether after the tyler's toast (not unusual to see 5-6 of use still present on lodge night after the South has concluded, whether in the pub as a lodge (like last Saturday night), whether in the pub, a home, on the street, in a car etc etc gathered with Freemasons, the organization brings us together and gives us a paradigm to converse in

First off, I am delighted to know that this is going on for you and your Brothers. Kudos for making it a part of your days.

Secondly, this is not part of the prescribed teaching of the Freemasonic world. You had to create it for yourselves because it is not part of the usual structure of the organization. Sure, our love of the Craft brings us together, but it's what we do afterward that determines further educational opportunities, not the system itself. All it offers is more morality plays (higher degrees) and opportunities to get together afterward. There is no structured educational systems to do anything other than memorize and repeat back.

 

[Ripcord22A]

. All it offers is more morality plays (higher degrees) and opportunities to get together afterward. There is no structured educational systems to do anything other than memorize and repeat back.

Well the AASR-SJ has the master cragtsman program...


Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app

 

[coachn]

Well the AASR-SJ has the master cragtsman program...
Sent from my LG-H811 using My Freemasonry Pro mobile app

Agreed! They do offer this program. It is not offered by any one jurisdiction.

From what is described, it is not Blue Lodge or Masonic though. It is Freemasonic and focused upon the society and its lore.

It is not about what the Blue Lodge Ritual directs us to do to Build Better Men.

 

[Bloke]

First off, I am delighted to know that this is going on for you and your Brothers. Kudos for making it a part of your days..

Thanks

...Secondly, this is not part of the prescribed teaching of the Freemasonic world...t it's what we do afterward that determines further educational opportunities, not the system itself....There is no structured educational systems to do anything other than memorize and repeat back.

Hmmm mayy-beee... but, bluntly, your "Freemasonic" world is an American one. We look at your TO model, and minus the requirements of presenting papers, a TO lodge is pretty much a standard one here and has been for a very long time...

A EA is told we hope he will "come to appreciate the value of freemasonry" and one of the EAs working tools (here) is the chisel - which represents education while a during the third the candidate is told of "the connection of our whole system and the relative dependence of it parts". Statements like these reinforce you need to understand the underpinning messages in our "theatre" which is education, exploration and development. This puts speculation at the core of Freemasonry. To speculate to you need knowledge and thought, ergo education is core.

I once remember listening to a conversation about HRA, I drew some conclusion (cant remember what it was) which shocked those guys because I am not a member of HRA (Chapter) - I said, "oh, that idea is in the Craft" which they had never seen.

......There is no structured educational systems to do anything other than memorize and repeat back.

Again there is here. To be advanced in the next degree, its prescribed a candidate complete an education model. It's in our Constitution.

 

[Bloke]

...It is Freemasonic and focused upon the society and its lore...

What are you trying to indicate in using the word "Freemasonic" - you are the only Freemason I know who uses the term...

 

[coachn]

Is it worth pointing out that making good men better is the work of the EA?

Yeah, but so are the Work of the FC and MM. When you do the Work, you know this.

Who even tries the work of the FC, and yet that work was common in Masonry before 1717.

I love Romantic Fantasy Notions. Please, share more.

 

[coachn]

What are you trying to indicate in using the word "Freemasonic" - you are the only Freemason I know who uses the term...

You don't know the Masons I hang with.

Here, read these and you may come to understand a movement to right what has been assumed for much too long:
http://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2014/01/the-coaches-coach-drawing-distinctions.html
http://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-coaches-coach-freemasonry-masonry.html

 

[Bloke]

You don't know the Masons I hang with.

Here, read these and you may come to understand a movement to right what has been assumed for much too long:
http://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2014/01/the-coaches-coach-drawing-distinctions.html
http://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-coaches-coach-freemasonry-masonry.html

I think the drawing distinctions article is clearer to explain my question

"In my quest, one of the rabbit holes I crawled down was the etymology of “Masonry”. It became very clear that the root of the word, “Masonry[viii]” is “Mason”. And furthermore, the root of the word, “Mason[ix],[x]” is “to make”. With a little bit of well thought out Speculation[xi] and even well founded reasoning, it’s easy to conclude that Masonry is about “making things”. In essence, Masons are Builders. "

&
"One thing stands out though. No matter what the conjecture is to its origins, the one thing that remains clearly obvious is that the current day use of the word is specific: To be called a “Freemason”, one must belong to a duly Recognized Organization and, furthermore, one does not require anything more from oneself than this legitimate association to wear this label. A Freemason does not have to Build anything whatsoever, he does not have to Speculate in any way and he does not even have to do anything other than pay his dues on time and be moral in his actions; he only has to be an accepted member. In essence, Freemasons are Members. "

I dont use these words in this way, but the paradigm is interesting. For me "Freemason" is a broad church and includes things like the "The Honourable Fraternity of Ancient Freemasons"

For me, "Freemason" is a collective and/or descriptive noun, similar to "Christian" under which sits all sorts of things like Catholicism, Anglicanism, Baptists etc etc, and like those groups, some Freemasons have a history of claiming their particular brand of 'Freemasonry' as the one true version.

In our second degree WTs there is a wonderful , "turning neither left nor right from the paths of virtue"- for an organisation supposedly without dogma, many of us seem to value and become obsessed with a single path, which our ritual actually cautions against when you listen to it.

Anyway, I now understand what you mean when you say "Freemasonic" but your nomenclature is not something I'm going to adopt today...

 

[Ressam]

Bold claim. Cite the source of his quote.

Greetings, Coach!
It's written in his -- "Freemasonry Encyclopedia", if I'm not mistaken.