A Brother Asks: Why Is Excluding Women Legitimate?

Discussion in 'General Freemasonry Discussion' started by coachn, Aug 9, 2018.

  1. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

    2,052
    2,028
    133
    LOL! Can't stop yourself, can you?
    <sigh> yep, can't stop yourself...
     
  2. Warrior1256

    Warrior1256 Site Benefactor

    7,185
    3,241
    183
    LOL! coachn at it again!
     
    coachn likes this.
  3. Warrior1256

    Warrior1256 Site Benefactor

    7,185
    3,241
    183
    BRAVO!
     
  4. Rifleman1776

    Rifleman1776 Registered User

    266
    182
    43
    I am astounded this thread even exists much less how much angst it has generated. It is what it is. Men are men, women are women. Viva la difference. If women were allowed in, I would leave. Part of what I enjoy about Masonry is the ability to get away from women for a while.
     
    tldubb, Warrior1256 and Glen Cook like this.
  5. LK600

    LK600 Premium Member

    654
    708
    113
    Intellectually speaking, you have been conflating apples to oranges. While I truly mean no disrespect, many of those arguments amount to what is termed, strawman.
     
    coachn likes this.
  6. Warrior1256

    Warrior1256 Site Benefactor

    7,185
    3,241
    183
    I've said this myself more than once. If regular Masonry, as I know it, ever admits women I'm gone.
     
  7. Bloke

    Bloke Premium Member

    4,197
    2,967
    133
    Interesting question, but I don't know because I have no first had knowledge, but from what I understand, OES always seemed a bit strange that men seemed so strongly involved in the qualification process for a what I understand is a female focused group, but I would be interested in understanding what you are saying Bro Glen with a further clarification Bro Glen.
     
  8. Bloke

    Bloke Premium Member

    4,197
    2,967
    133
    I would say they would be there, but written out of history because of its often patriarchal portrayal of history. That said, it would be naive to say anything other than women were deprived of rights and were often seen as goods in Western Culture, they certainly did not have the same legal rights nor social or economic opportunities.

    If a student of history and interested in Truth, it would be interesting to see if we can find one. I cant really think of one and women like Elizabeth 1 were and St Hildebrand rather outliers than peak examples of a trajectory open to most women (and we are ignoring class in this, very important in the Medieval West. One leveler was military conquest - certainly not generally open to any women). I think examples like these
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_education#Medieval_period are counter culture - but they still existed which is something which should be noted. One thing for sure, if I was a woman - I would definitely pick being born in a Western Society as close to today as possible. (mind you, I would say the same for being born male).

    That's all interesting, but I must further add, I do not see that women not being admitted as members of Regular Freemasonry has anything to do with "woman's rights". Woman have access to Masonic experiences if they want it, and it is up to organisations like LDH to work to provide that is woman want it, just like we work to build malecentric regular Freemasonry.
     
    coachn likes this.
  9. JamestheJust

    JamestheJust Registered User

    1,645
    499
    83
    If only we had the genuine secrets we would know for sure whether women have a role in Masonic Science.

    Here are the male and female founders of China with S&C and hand over back

    [​IMG]
     
  10. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

    2,052
    2,028
    133
    Who is this "we" of whom you speak?
    Okay... I get it. You don't have these genuine secrets which most everyone has who does the Work that is pointed toward by each degree.

    "If only" you did this Work too perhaps you would stop your incessant "If only..." whine acting like the rest of us don't.
    There's that royal "we" again. Seriously, you need to speak for yourself dude. You certainly do NOT speak for the rest of us.
    Spurious argument. Red Herring. Not on topic. The issue is not whether women have a role in "Masonic Science". The issue is male centric societies excluding them legitimately!
    EWWWWWWW!!!!!! THEY HAVE A S&C! THEY MUST BE ILLUMINATTI FREEMASONS!!!!!!! :p

    Your statement is spurious and off topic. The picture and comment you shared depicts Chinese mythology. It has nothing to do with the topic.

    You also neglected to mention the plumb-bob next to the square. "If only" you did the Work...

    (source: http://www.templestudy.com/2008/09/17/nuwa-and-fuxi-in-chinese-mythology-compass-square/)
     
  11. JamestheJust

    JamestheJust Registered User

    1,645
    499
    83
    I apologize for upsetting you
     
  12. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

    2,052
    2,028
    133
    <chuckle> ... much like many of your posts, you assume much here as well.
     
    dfreybur likes this.
  13. acjohnson53

    acjohnson53 Registered User

    842
    715
    93
    I would refer them to my sister Chapter of the OES, that is about as close they will get, and we got flying GOATS in there, wouldn't want nobody to get hurt in there, insurance won't cover it. and the darn thing bite...LOL
     
    Warrior1256 likes this.
  14. Glen Cook

    Glen Cook G A Cook Site Benefactor

    2,863
    3,293
    183
    But, of course, that is not Freemasonry if that is their goal
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2018
    Brother JC, coachn and bupton52 like this.
  15. ERHansen

    ERHansen Registered User

    14
    22
    3
    As someone with firsthand knowledge in both a youth group and OES, my response to this is: Yes.
     
    LK600 likes this.
  16. Todd M. Stewart

    Todd M. Stewart Premium Member

    13
    5
    23
    Not sure if this has already been brought up but one question worth examining regarding 'regularity' is cross-jurisdictional recognition. While one jurisdiction may not have any authority over another, it certainly can refuse to recognize someone when visiting another Lodge or petitioning for a transfer/dual/plural membership. While jurisdictions are independent, Masonry is an international fraternity and as such there should be some common means of recognizing a Brother across those jurisdictions that is meaningful.
     
  17. Glen Cook

    Glen Cook G A Cook Site Benefactor

    2,863
    3,293
    183
    Not entirely sure of your point, but “recognise “ is best used to describe the process of jurisdictions recognising one another.

    Yes, many jurisdictions state lodges can deny entry to a visiting mason, and must do so if his jurisdiction is not recognised.

    We do have common means of determining if a visitor is a member of a recognised jurisdiction.

    Or did I completely miss your point?
     
  18. Todd M. Stewart

    Todd M. Stewart Premium Member

    13
    5
    23
    I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are certain expectations on a personal level (outside the tiled Lodge), that a Brother has of Masonry and visa versa. I expect that when I travel anywhere in the world I will be accepted by other members of the Craft, and that if the need so arises my Brothers will come to my aid. I in turn, took an obligation that specifically prohibited me from making a woman a Mason, and from communicating Masonically with a clandestine Mason 'knowing them to be such'. I am also obligated to come to the aid of Brother Masons, their Widows and orphans. If there isn't some way that we can personally be at least somewhat sure that someone claiming to be a 'regular' Mason is indeed that, we put our Brothers in a difficult position. Obviously in my case it would be easy to make the determination that a woman is not a regular Mason, but Masons are told when they join that they can expect Brothers will welcome them and to come to their aid in times of need. For a woman that believes she is a regular Mason she may be seriously disappointed when she travels outside her home jurisdiction and encounters members of the Craft that do not recognize her as such. In addition it becomes more difficult for someone such as I when dealing with a male brother who has in my view, violated the obligation by making a woman a Mason and therefore considered to be clandestine. While technically I am not violating my obligation in communicating with him if I do not know he is considered clandestine by my jurisdiction, it wouldn't make me feel any better about doing so. So while it's fine to speak about the strict jurisdictional aspect of this issue, I think it's more important to speak of how it impacts the Craft on a Mason to Mason level.
     
  19. Keith C

    Keith C Registered User

    770
    885
    93
    I understand your point, but when do you ever have a discussion including that which we are bound to keep secret with someone you have a chance encounter with whether or not you are convinced they are a "regular" Mason? What aid would you give a distressed person you just encountered who you were confident was a "regular" Mason that you wouldn't provide to a non Mason?

    To me, the issue of regularity only comes into play when someone seeks admittance to a Tyled Lodge meeting.

    I meet people all the time who see the S&C on my hat or shirt. They usually great me with a "Hello Brother..." and proceed to tell me their Lodge information and jurisdiction, and I share mine. I have never had that type discussion lead into a discussion of ritual or esoteric work, nor would I engage in that type discussion outside a Lodge. If a car is broken down on the side of the road, I do not look for a S&C or stop and question the driver to determine if they are a Mason before helping, I just stop and offer assistance.
     
  20. Todd M. Stewart

    Todd M. Stewart Premium Member

    13
    5
    23
    Very good points indeed. In terms of Masonic communication, I think you're entirely correct in that it's extremely unlikely to occur outside the Tyled Lodge. This discussion does cause one to do a lot of think upon our obligation, what it means Brother to Brother, and Brother to the World. Is there anything in terms of assistance we would give a Brother Mason that we would not extend to any person? I suppose that is a question each one of us must answer for themselves. I am the son and grandson of Law Enforcement Officers and was a firefighter myself. Service to others is something taught from a very early age in my family. I have been trained in lifesaving and in tactical use of a sidearm. I believe that I would not hesitate to use either skill to render aid to anyone. So perhaps you're correct in that the issue of 'regularity' should only impact entry into a Tyled Lodge. But that brings to mind the question is our obligation merely symbolic in some respects? Certainly not all, but it should make for some introspection about it.
     
    Brother JC likes this.

Share My Freemasonry