A.f & a.m? F.&a.m?

Discussion in 'Becoming a Freemason' started by JustinScott, Oct 2, 2012.

  1. daddyrich

    daddyrich Registered User

    A.f & a.m? F.&a.m?

    I was wondering this, myself. I am a Master in my Lodge, which is F&AM. We have a great history and receive many travelling bretheren. Maybe this irregularity is mostly confined to Canada? At least insofar as Free & Accepted Masons are concerned.
  2. widows son

    widows son Premium Member

    A.f & a.m? F.&a.m?

    What do you mean the brethren in Canada receive the proper light? are you implying that we are doing things wrong? Most of Canada is AFAM
  3. scialytic

    scialytic Premium Member

    There is clearly a misunderstanding. Surely nobody meant to say Canadian Lodges are irregular. I'm sure there are some, just like in the U.S. The designation of F&AM, AF&AM, etc. is only an indication of their historical roots. The exception is with Prince Hall Affilliated Lodges which are always F&AM (again, historical). The regularity of any Lodge is universally dependent on its lineage to the UGLE (or predicate Grand Lodge), Recognition/affiliation with its immediate Grand Lodge, and regularity of Work (landmarks, rites, etc.).

    Thus, nobody on this forum could know whether any of these Lodges are irregular without specific knowledge about the lodges, their Grand Lodges, and their history. So let's chill...and think happy thoughts. Happy, happy...joy...joy!
  4. widows son

    widows son Premium Member

    A.f & a.m? F.&a.m?

    Lol. Im sorry if that came out hostile, that wasn't the tone I wanted to convey, and I apologize for that. But I'm not too familiar with other GL jurisdictions in Canada but the GL of AFAM in the province of Ontario has it lineage back to UGLE, Niagara on the lake lodge #1 eventually moved to Hamilton and became the grand lodge
  5. scialytic

    scialytic Premium Member



    Blame Canada!!!
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2012
  6. Michael Neumann

    Michael Neumann Premium Member

    [h=1]What is the
    difference between AF&AM and F&AM Lodges?
    [h=4]by Roger M. Firestone[/h]

    After the foundation of the first Grand Lodge in England in 1717, a rival
    Grand Lodge arose less than two decades later, calling itself the Antients (or
    Ancients), whereby it intended to assert greater authenticity than the rival
    "modern" Grand Lodge. The Antients were also known as the Athol Masons, from
    their first Grand Master, the Duke of Athol. Some authors (e.g., Carl Claudy)
    say the Antients were schismatic--i.e., had split off from the "modern" Grand
    Lodge; others (e.g., Allen Roberts) of more recent vintage say that the Antients
    were founded independently by Lodges deriving from Scottish and Irish traditions
    who were excluded by the English "moderns."

    These competing English Grand Lodges, along with Grand Lodges established in
    Scotland and Ireland, issued charters for Lodges in the American colonies into
    the latter half of the 18th century, until the American Revolutionary War led to
    the ties between the colonies and the mother country being severed. Long after
    that event, in 1813 (when the two countries were again at war, in fact), the
    rival English Grand Lodges amalgamated to form the United Grand Lodge of
    England, which is the governing body of English Freemasonry to this day.

    Meanwhile, in the new United States of America, Grand Lodges were organized
    separately in each state, some as offspring of Provincial Grand Lodges and some
    as self-declared independent Grand Lodges (e.g., Virginia). These Grand Lodges
    comprised Lodges whose charters had been issued by both the Antient and "modern"
    Grand Lodges in England (as well as a few Scottish and Irish constitution
    Lodges). The designation of whether a Grand Lodge was Free and Accepted or
    Ancient Free and Accepted was therefore almost an arbitrary choice, based
    perhaps on who had a bit more political power when the new Grand Lodge was

    In particular, one cannot conclude anything significant about the nature of
    the ritual used by a Grand Lodge as to its Antient or "modern" content, based
    only on the designation as F&AM or AF&AM. Many Grand Lodges use an
    amalgamation of the forms, and it would take detailed study (never having been
    done to my knowledge) to determine the precise provenance of each American Grand
    Lodge's ritual contents. It does appear that Pennsylvania may adhere most
    closely to the work of the Antients, while a northern tier of states, running
    from Connecticut through Minnesota and perhaps farther west, preserves the
    "modern" ritual most closely. In those states where a ritual cipher is
    permitted, which seems to be more a characteristic of the "moderns," the
    incorporation of changes to the ritual occur with much lower frequency (a fairly
    obvious observation). An example is the phrase "any be due," which is
    synonymously rendered "aught be due" in the apparently "modern" jurisdictions:
    The substitution of a common word ("any") for an archaic one ("aught") is a
    natural evolution of an oral tradition, while the reverse substitution virtually
    never occurs in oral transmission. The states with a printed ritual cipher have
    maintained "aught," while "any" has appeared in those states eschewing such
    written aids.

    Incidentally, there are two jurisdictions which use neither F&AM nor
    AF&AM: The District of Columbia uses FAAM, and South Carolina uses AFM.
    Again, these are distinctions without any real difference.

    Various suppositions are made about "four-letter" Lodges vs. "three-letter"
    Lodges and relationships to Prince Hall (PHA) Masonry and issues of recognition,
    but these are entirely unfounded.
  7. martin

    martin Registered User

    A.f & a.m? F.&a.m?

    Hahaha is funny reading all the answers trying really hard to explains who's right or who's not every1 base there answer in American history but they forgot that in the rest if the world is totally different of wut u guys think , anyways in the end to tell u the true I think AF.AM , F.AM, AFM ir whatever it is we r all masona and thats it , we have to be tolerant to each other we have to respect every1 ideas that's wut masonry is ,but 1 question make everi1 crazy , come on guys lets show wut mason really are
  8. daddyrich

    daddyrich Registered User

    A.f & a.m? F.&a.m?

    That would be all well and good, if there were nit penalties for attempting Masonic communication w/ a member of a clandestine/irregular Lodge. I've always tried to maintain that we all have common ground, but from what I have seen and read they are every bit as hostile to our ways as we are proscribed to feeling about theirs. There are differences, some glaring and others slight. I do wish there were a way to rectify this as such but it doesn 't appear to be forthcoming.
  9. towerbuilder7

    towerbuilder7 Moderator Premium Member

    Bro Widow's Son, please allow me to explain..........If you re-read my response, it simply stated that I wanted to clarify the legitimate origin of F&AM Lodges here in America, so that we ensure you Brothers up North who have any misconceptions or concerns about our legitimacy or regularity are receiving the proper and accurate LIGHT (information) about F&AM Lodges...........I expounded on your comment, in order to create some understanding...................

    Bro Vincent C. Jones, Sr., Lodge Chaplain, Bayou City Lodge #228
    Prince Hall Affiliation, Free and Accepted Masonry, Houston, Texas
    Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Texas, Est. 1878
  10. scialytic

    scialytic Premium Member

    I'm familiar with how things developed in the US. I may do some more research on other countries as well. Canada and Mexico had heavy French and Spanish (respectively) influence at the origin of what became their current countries. I'd be interested to see how Light spread there. My arrogant American self wants to believe it came from/through us...but highly doubt that. I think I've found something to keep me occupied (aside fom memory work).
  11. widows son

    widows son Premium Member

    A.f & a.m? F.&a.m?

    Bro. Towerbuilder7. I don't think there's any issue with recognizing legitimacy here in Canada as all masons who trace their lineage back to the UGLE are recognized. I am aware that F&AM are legitimate as well as PHA. We have the same information you do on the subject. I'm not sure if there are any PHA lodges in Canada, but we are aware of PHA and if they are recognized legally by UGLE then they are brothers. No clarification needed brother
  12. CajunTinMan

    CajunTinMan Registered User

    Touchy subject. Wouldn't it be great if someone who had access to a list of grand lodges that are recognized as regular would post it.
  13. BryanMaloney

    BryanMaloney Premium Member

  14. CajunTinMan

    CajunTinMan Registered User

    Good deal Brother. That should make things a little simpler.
  15. CajunTinMan

    CajunTinMan Registered User

    From 1751 to 1813, there were actually 2 Grand Lodges in England. The difference in AF and AM vs F and AM states goes back to a disagreement between these 2 Grand Lodges in London at that time.
    One group was called the "Moderns", but was actually the older of the 2 English Grand Lodges. The other group was called the "Antients", which became the "Ancients" in AF and AM.

    Due to this disagreement, the 2 groups broke into separate Grand Lodges. The disagreement was later healed around 1880, but by that time, there were lodges and Grand Lodges all over the United States that were descended from one group or the other, and so each group kept their corresponding initials with which they were formed, (which is the reason for which there are small differences within different states' ritual wording and Grand Lodge By-Laws and procedures).

    Most Grand Lodges in the U.S. recognize each other and treat each other's members as valid Masons.
    Also, all of the U.S. Grand Lodges recognize (and are recognized by) the official Grand Lodges of England, Ireland, Scotland and the Grand Lodges in most of Europe, Asia, Africa, South America, Thailand, India, etc

    [h=3]AF & AM States[/h]
    AF & AM - Ancient Free and Accepted MasonsThese 24 AF & AM states include: CO, CT, DE, ID, IL, IA, KS, ME, MD, MA, MN, MO, MT, NE, NM, NC, ND, OK, OR, SD, TX, VA, WV, WY.
    [h=4]F & A M States:[/h]
    F & AM - Free and Accepted MasonsThese 25 F & AM states include: AL, AK, AR, AZ, CA, FL, GA, HI, IN, KY, LA, MI, MS, NH, NJ, NV, NY, OH, PA, RI, TN, UT, VT, WA, WI.All Prince Hall lodges are also F. & A.M.
    [h=4]AFM State:[/h]
    AFM - Ancient Free MasonsThere is 1 AFM state: SC
    [h=4]FAAM District:[/h]
    FAAM - Free And Accepted MasonsThe District of Columbia is F.A.A.M

  16. tom268

    tom268 Registered User

    In all of Scandinavia, the grand lodges work the Swedish Rite, that is neither AF&AM, F&AM or whatever. The oldest Grand Lodge in Germany is the Grand National Mother Lodge "3 World Globes", again without letters. In France, Italy and Spain, grand lodges are usually called Grand Orients, and as the Grand Orient de France became irregular a long time ago, most "GO" bodies in Europe are irregular too. Exceptions: The Grand East of the Netherlands.

    But regularity is a tricky thing and comes with too many exceptions to make a rule. The only way to determine, if a lodge or GL is considered regular, to adress your own GL and ask. For example: I had a chat with a brother from Greece. He is from the National Grand Lodge of Greece, recognized by many states, including the GL of Scotland. He was very confused as I treated him as irregular. My GL recognizes the Grand Lodge of Greece, as does the UGLoE.
    So, what could happen? We cannot meet in lodge in Greece or Germany, but we could sit in lodge in Scotland, without harming our obligations.

    The question of regularity is far from being easily answered.
  17. jwhoff

    jwhoff Premium Member

    Last edited: Nov 1, 2012

Share My Freemasonry