Albert Pike: More harm than good?

Discussion in 'General Freemasonry Discussion' started by cacarter, Apr 2, 2014.

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Is Albert Pike more harm than good?

Poll closed Jul 11, 2014.
  1. Good

    11 vote(s)
    44.0%
  2. Harmful

    6 vote(s)
    24.0%
  3. Some good, some bad.

    8 vote(s)
    32.0%
  1. Dpranch11

    Dpranch11 Registered User

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    Just because it sounds or feels good to you doesn't mean it's right or good for you.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2014
  2. rebis

    rebis Premium Member

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    Ad hominem.
     
  3. Dpranch11

    Dpranch11 Registered User

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    Mendacium....Where there's no fuel there's no fire.
     
  4. jjjjjggggg

    jjjjjggggg Premium Member

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    It's the same with the founding fathers... no one can sugar coat that many of them, though masons, did own slaves. It's a dark part of our history, but what is worse is that there are those who still perpetuate racism even still today within the lodges.

    One brother shared a story with me about how when he petitioned a lodge, because of his Native American heritage and darker skin tone, it was suggested he consider the Prince Hall lodge.

    Though prince hall has a rich heritage and I in no way believe they should disband, I am saddened that there was even a need for them because if regular lodges were living the ideals of freemasonry, they would have never been needed.

    The fact that we still can't meet as brothers on the level speaks volumes... and freemasonry will continue to decline because the younger generation sees the hypocrisy.

    It's time for brothers to start making more noise... like brother Charles Harper.




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  5. MRichard

    MRichard Mark A. Ri'chard Premium Member

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    Not a mason yet but that was a great post.
     
  6. Mindovermatter Ace

    Mindovermatter Ace Registered User

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    I agree with brother Regis. You have to understand that at that time slavery was the norm. We give honor to many men not just in masonry who owned slaves. Did you ever consider the actual free black men who owned slaves as well during that time in history? Knowing this how can you judge?


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  7. tldubb

    tldubb Premium Member

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    Wow are you serious....blacks that owned slaves....name them. Well on second thought what does that have to do with the discussion question.....nothing at all. Mindovermatter..really you should get with your Grand Lodge historian and get educated on what Prince Hall was all about. If it is so much about the past go attend a meeting in GL of LA...oh you can't get real....it's not judging but the truth.

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  8. BryanMaloney

    BryanMaloney Premium Member

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  9. dfreybur

    dfreybur Premium Member

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    I try to remember the flaws and the nobilities. Think of Patton and Rommel - Two opponents who respected each other even though they were at war with each other and served masters who were intractable enemies. Patton and Rommel were able to separate out their own sides and feelings in their assessments of each other. That's an approach I think worthy of all emulation.

    Do I buy into the theory that everyone in Pike's era was a racist? I do not but I also don't think that's relevant in this instance.

    Do I buy into the theory that all of Pike's Masonic accomplishments are annulled because he was a known racist? That's a different matter and I do not think so. I understand that after the Civil War he spent much of the rest of his life building our fraternity as best he could given his flaws. I don't understand why the AASR-SJ remains so impressed with him. I find it easier to be at peace with the memory of Rommel thanks to Patton's example than to be at peace with the memory of Pike for lack of such example, but I do try to emulate that good example.

    I figure I hold some stance that future generations will find reprehensible, whatever it is that turns up in future generation. I hope they will forgive me my stance and remember my small contributions in the context of my time.
     
  10. tldubb

    tldubb Premium Member

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  11. tldubb

    tldubb Premium Member

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    Pike was a racist and a white supremist. .don't blame it on the time period because that is a sorry excuse..it is the mean reason why Prince Hall masonry exists and thank good for that!

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  12. RyanC

    RyanC Registered User

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    No matter how much we dislike the past we can not change it, only right now and the future can we correct the wrongs of yesterday.
     
  13. Dpranch11

    Dpranch11 Registered User

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    Brother RyanC your correct.Brother Mindovermatter Ace..Astounded by your theory there...Brother tldubb ,appreciate bringing the brother up to speed.Spot on. I almost fell out my chair. My parents marched with Martin Luther King in Albany,Ga back in the day anyways back on topic. Brother jamie.guinn I was almost disturbed by your statement until you answered the question and I read more into what you were saying.Because the brother ,Mr.Pike didn't live it though he spoke it well like many brothers on both sides.Like the religious man who can tell you all about the Bible but it has no effect on him personally still playing with his demons.Get the point? A divided house will not stand and yes hypocrisy is an evil double edged sword. We as Masons stand on morals and when you take that away I will no longer would want to be in a social club of hate,contention and living in the past while dying in the future. How can you defend a man who is morally dead unless your as how they say two of a kind? Exactly you can't. Numerous big words and his accomplishments or mental tact in Masonry can't excuse what he is and the question was is he more harm or good.Any Mason worth his salt will call it for what it is. I see many other of you brothers defending a morally dead man. What does that say of yourself and our craft? Do you think because a man has helped the cause but yet hates his brother a success story? An open racist he was and died just the same. The truth has fallen many of a man greater than him or any of us for that matter. By what? That littlest member between our cheeks. A great destroyer of man. Just run out there and spout something stupid if your a man of position and see how well you fare. Not good so don't do it.Again I say...Behold how good and pleasant is it for brethren to dwell together in peace and if we are a craft ruled by the Bible let us not forget that includes the black,white,brown and yellow. Hopefully when my child enters the craft it'll be different. I pray. All have a blessed and prosperous day and may the best of your todays be the worst of your tomorrows....SMIB

    Fraternally,
    Demitrius N. Daniels
    PIKES PEAK LODGE #5 F.&A.M.(PHA/MM)
    Colorado Springs,Co
     
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  14. jjjjjggggg

    jjjjjggggg Premium Member

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    Dpranch,
    Glad you stuck through what I was trying to say.... I was in NO way defending pike or institutional racism... quite the opposite. I just wished that American masonry would have got it right from the beginning... Just imagine how much further down the road we'd be if masons who have stepped up.


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  15. Michael Hatley

    Michael Hatley Premium Member

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    Same here.

    I am a Scottish Rite Mason, as many here are, and in the southern jurisdiction. Personally, I do not revere Pike as some do. I don't despise him either. He was obviously a brilliant man, but I wish more folks were genuinely interested in primary sources. There is, in one man's opinion, more substance to be found there. I do not need or require the lily to be gilded, and I fear the gilding prevents many from smelling the flowers themselves. In short I think much of his prose is ostentatious, and serve to obfuscate as much as enlighten.

    That doesn't prevent me from reading and admiring his works, and benefiting from them of course. Dickens was a hyperbolic sentimentalist, but his writings are undeniably excellent, Thoreau was in essence a lazy man but wise, and Whitman was a pacifist reprobate (from a certain point of view) but perhaps our country's most gifted poet. You've got to decide which things they and many others were right about and which they might not have been, and amalgamate your own view of God, the world, and our place in it in my opinion.

    Personally I'd pick Twain over Pike in a heartbeat if I were time traveling, you can bet he would be better company :)
     
  16. Michael Hatley

    Michael Hatley Premium Member

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    Thats Pikian for "hippie" Bro :24:
     
  17. jvarnell

    jvarnell Premium Member

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    No one should ever throw out good with the bad. They should learn from the good and disavow the bad parts of everyone. Nothing is a binary argument like that. Albert Pike had a lot of good to say.
     
  18. BroBook

    BroBook Premium Member

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    Have only looked at bits and pieces of Morals & Dogma, so can't judge that being racist " might" be a sin but one is no better/worse than any other the penalty for it is death unless... In closing " anyone that does not know that everyone has flaws has serious flaws" The Hebrew!!!


    Bro Book
     
  19. jvarnell

    jvarnell Premium Member

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    The word racist is used as a bad word toward someone and saying one is a racist without knowing their hart is racist in it self. I hope we all learn to work on the level.
     
  20. Dpranch11

    Dpranch11 Registered User

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    Brothers. No need to quarrel a matter and when two sides can't agree then the best thing to do indeed is to remember our oath. On this line considering profane are here and lower level alike in no disrespect to brethren as we all are equal before THE GREAT DEITY. We are all to work on ourselves as deemed while we are alive on this plan of existence. All have a blessed and prosperous day and open our perceptions to broader light.

    Demitrius N. Daniels
    PIKES PEAK LODGE #5 F.&A.M.
    Colorado Springs,CO
     
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