anti masonry

[CajunTinMan]

Why not Skip? If I want people to know that I am not satanist then as a Christian I must shine for Christ, just as Muslims must shine for Allah, etc.. And we a Masons must shine as good men. If someone can look at me and say, "I know that man to be a Christian, and he's a mason", then I just helped debunk the lie.

 

[Virgin Islands Brother]

Someone spray painted on our lodge " eat shit devil fuckers" it really made me angry, I don't worship Satan, I just want to help people


Brother, our anti-masonry situation is so bad, we can't park outside of lodge. When I was an EA the JWs car glass was broken, an EA, on the night of his initiation, his glass was smashed.
Now get this. At least once a month, there is a fresh clump of human feces greeting us at the entrance. The street cameras just don't do the job and we haven't been able to identify anyone.

All I can say is pitty them. Always remember when a wise man and a fool argue, people standing at distance can't tell the difference. We can only rise above it and install the appropriate equipment necessary to catch them.

 

[widows son]

I feel for you brother, and I am disgusted with some people, I'm trying to convince our master to install a camera on our property, even of its not running anything, it might make people think twice

 

[T.N. Sampson]

Why not Skip? If I want people to know that I am not satanist then as a Christian I must shine for Christ, just as Muslims must shine for Allah, etc.. And we a Masons must shine as good men. If someone can look at me and say, "I know that man to be a Christian, and he's a mason", then I just helped debunk the lie.

I mainly object to your misuse of scripture. The verse you used is, of course, part of the Sermon on the Mount, in which Jesus is teaching his disciples about the Christian lifestyle. He is not speaking to world at large, but only to those who have chosen to follow him, and letting them know what is expected of them.

The Bible speaks in both generalities and specificities. The commandment "Do not steal" is a general statement applicable to all mankind. Jesus' words to the thief "today you will be with me in paradise†is a specific statement, applicable to a single person at a single time. To make more, or less, out of scripture is a problem. In your case, to take a specific comment meant for disciples and apply it to Masons, both Christian and non-Christian, is simply unwarranted. This is especially true when one considers that Jesus described himself as the "light of the world" which provides the context to Matt 5, in that our 'light' is reflective of his. I personally find such scripture misapplication objectionable.

It would seem to me that the 'light' you are referring to is not Jesus, but the 'light' one finds within Masonry. I think you would be better served to dwell on that light found in the Lodge than applying a Christian concept to all Masons. If you wish to 'prove' that you are a Christian to others, your actions in the here and now should testify to that status. I do not see how your membership in Masonry provides such a testimony.

The only way we are going to combat all the anti Masonic rhetoric out there is to live lives that are examples to others.

Then show how Masonry has made you an example for others to follow. I would assume that the basis of criticism you imply is Freemasonry, not Christianity; thus, address it from the center of the criticism.

just as Muslims must shine for Allah,

Do you think that the 'light' of the Christian is also the 'light' of the Muslim? Do you see any need to witness to the Muslim of your own beliefs? Cordially, Skip.

 

[T.N. Sampson]

Someone spray painted on our

I'm surprised the rules of the forum do not prohibit such obscenities. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Brent Heilman]

I'm surprised the rules of the forum do not prohibit such obscenities. Cordially, Skip.

I don't see a problem since it was a quote. Now if the obscenities start flowing in every post then we might have a problem.

 

[widows son]

The obscenities weren't directed to you Skip, or to anyone i quoted what was sprayed on the side of my lodge, and they're only words Skip, sticks and stones brother, sticks and stones

 

[Virgin Islands Brother]

Understood Brother. No worries.

 

[CajunTinMan]

I think your hung up on the wrong thing here Skip. First of all those quotes are in the Bible to give examples. So the audience is far larger. Secondly, good examples of how to live can be found in the Bible, the Korean, the teachings Neechee, all over the place. The light I was talking about from the quote, for me as a Christian, was for Jesus but was also referencing how we as Mason we should use this example of how to act as an example of how to shine good light on Masonry too. Masonry is not and never has been a road to salvation. This was never implied. And you have completely twisted the reference to Islam because it did not in anyway imply that Christianity was a light for Muslims. I was clearly stating that it is my belief that they should both be a beacon to thier faiths. How that was misunderstood I have not ideal. But then again people misunderstand Masonary too. So I guess it is possible. I can see that I offended you by the point I was trying to make by saying that both Christians and Muslims should be a light to thier faiths, and as such could not be mistaken as worshiping satan. I apologize for this.

 

[widows son]

Don't Christians and Muslim believe in the same God? One just requires Christ to be the path to God? Both have the same end result: paradise; walking with the Maker( this doesnt reflect my beliefs though). I agree with CajunTinMan, there are many good examples on how to life a good can be found in the bible etc, but I think that these morals are human morals rather than christian or muslim morals. Even the ten commandments, does God really need to tell you that it's wrong to steal from someone? Or to not be covetous? I think just putting yourself in someone else's shoes will tell you the answer

 

[T.N. Sampson]

The obscenities weren't directed to you Skip

Sure they were: they were on a thread I was reading. I see no place for such words on this forum.

they're only words

So were your obligations and the phrase you ended them with. Were they meaningless as well? Jesus noted that we need to be careful of every word we speak, because we will be held accountable for them.

Don't Christians and Muslim believe in the same God?

No, they do not. Their respective authorities describe them in mutually exclusive ways.

I think that these morals are human morals rather than christian or muslim morals. Even the ten commandments, does God really need to tell you that it's wrong to steal from someone? Or to not be covetous? I think just putting yourself in someone else's shoes will tell you the answer

I think you've missed a serious point. Morality is either God-centered or man-centered. If man-centered, the moral code is ever-changing and context dependent. If God-centered, it is absolute and unchanging. Yes, God really did need to tell his people that they cannot steal, period.

I don't know how Texas treats the issue, but some GL's are clear that what is called 'Masonic morality' is the idea that each Mason determines what his moral code is and, once determined, will be expected to live up to that ideal. It's a perfect example of man-centered morality. Cordially, Skip.

 

[T.N. Sampson]

First of all those quotes are in the Bible to give examples.

I do not agree.

The light I was talking about from the quote, for me as a Christian, was for Jesus but was also referencing how we as Mason we should use this example of how to act as an example of how to shine good light on Masonry too.

The light the Christian shows is a reflection of Jesus. As I noted earlier, if you wish to show the Masonic light in your life, I'd suggest you find a way that does not include misapplication of scripture.

Masonry is not and never has been a road to salvation.

I would not agree with that, but such a discussion is outside the scope of this forum.

I was clearly stating that it is my belief that they should both be a beacon to thier faiths.

I think that already happens. When you see muslims killing people in the street over a perceived disrespect to Muhammad, I'd say that is certainly illuminating their faith.

I can see that I offended you by the point I was trying to make by saying that both Christians and Muslims should be a light to thier faiths, and as such could not be mistaken as worshiping satan. I apologize for this.

No offense taken and no apology needed. I was just asking a follow-up question. I apologize for not being more clear on that matter. Cordially, Skip.

 

[CajunTinMan]

I think you've missed a serious point. Morality is either God-centered or man-centered. If man-centered, the moral code is ever-changing and context dependent. If God-centered, it is absolute and unchanging. Yes, God really did need to tell his people that they cannot steal, period.


Can't argue with that one. But the examples are there in the Bible to be a guide to all things.

 

[phulseapple]

Brothers, be mindful of your words on the subject of Freemasonry when in presence of its' enemies.

 

[Traveling Man]

I would not agree with that, but such a discussion is outside the scope of this forum.

You’ve already gone down that track.

I think that already happens. When you see Muslims killing people in the street over a perceived disrespect to Muhammad, I'd say that is certainly illuminating their faith.

Pretty broad brush there Skip, don’t you think?

No, they so not. Their respective authorities describe them in mutually exclusive ways.

Wow, as a friend of mine claims they pray to the G_d of Abraham. Who would that be?

I don't know how Texas treats the issue, but some GL's are clear that what is called 'Masonic morality' is the idea that each Mason determines what his moral code is and, once determined, will be expected to live up to that ideal.

Please cite your source, as this is a first; as I have traveled more than around the block.

So were your obligations and the phrase you ended them with. Were they meaningless as well? Jesus noted that we need to be careful of every word we speak, because we will be held accountable for them.

Nice circular argument there… You are really equating a solemn obligation with a bunch of obscenities graffitied on a building? Thanks for that nice tid-bit, I guess we know where we stand.

The commandment "Do not steal" is a general statement applicable to all mankind.

So the Decalogue is the “general statementsâ€, correct? Not just commandments to Israel and mankind in general.

 

[T.N. Sampson]

Pretty broad brush there Skip, don’t you think?

No, I think it accurate. Also illuminating is the lack of muslims standing up to condemn such behavior. Should one Mason be found passed out drunk in front of a Lodge, all Masons would be judged by his actions. Fairly or unfairly, it's how actions are seen.

Wow, as a friend of mine claims they pray to the G_d of Abraham. Who would that be?

Ask him. As well, ask him upon what authority does he base his understanding of his God. All views of God have an authoritative source (e.g., Bible, Torah, Koran, etc.) and our knowledge comes from the source we hold to be authoritative. Upon which VSL did you take your obligations and oath? Did you not hold it authoritative on such matters?

Please cite your source,

I do not have anything from Texas, but here are a few you may wish to consider on the topic:

Morals, good morals, are those accepted standards of behavior by which any action is measured to determine its fitness for practice. Morality by the same token, is the exercise of those accepted standards. With these definitions, it becomes clear that Morality is the use of good morals in our daily lives. Morality is not a matter of compunction. The man, who acts always within the moral law, or within the bounds of propriety, solely because he fears to act otherwise, may be fooling himself and seldom others. Thus such a man becomes a kind of dual personality - one side of him wishing to act properly as a matter of principle,the other side restrained from immorality only by fear. It is the precepts that makes for morality and conduct, which establishes it. There is no such thing as Masonic Morality, as indicating a separate or exclusive code of conduct. Masonry offers no set of specific morals nor does any particular moral originate in it. Masonry teaches the practice of all good morals, leaving the interpretation of right and wrong to the individual conscience. That Masonry abides deeply in the practice of Morality will be evident to you as you progress through itsDegrees. (FL GL, LSME Booklet 1, 2009,pg. 8)

The Plumb is a symbol of uprightness of conduct. In Freemasonry it is associated with the plumb line which the Lord promised Amos He would set in the midst of his people of Israel, symbolizing His standard of divine righteousness. The plumb line in the midst of a people should mean that they will be judged by their own sense of right and wrong and not by the standards of others. Freemasons, understanding the Plumb, are to judge each brother by his own standards and not those of another. When the plumb line is thought of in this way, it becomes a symbol of an upright life and of the conscience by which each must live. (GA GL, Mentors Manual, 2010, pg. 28; (Same thought also in these sources: NM GL,Masonic Etiquette, 2005, pg. 3; VA GL, Mentor's Manual, 2002, pg. 35; NE GL, Mentoring Manual, 2006, pg. 47; MS GL, Mentor's Manual, 1986, pg. 16; MSA, Pocket Encyclopedia of Masonic Symbols; CA GL, Mentoring Program, 2004, pg. 89; UT GL, FC Education Plan, 2007, pg. 4; IL GL, Intender Program, FC Guidebook, 2003, pg. 25; TN GL, BMEC-FC, 2003, pg. 8))

Though only indirectly a GL source, Allen E. Roberts addressed the issue concisely:

A question often asked is, "What is morality?" It is difficult to define. What is moral to one man may be immoral to another. Each man must decide for himself what the word encompasses, taking into account the moral standards of the society in which he lives. He must take into account his conscience, circumstances, and conduct. He must set his own standards, his own principles. It can be dangerous to apply his standards in judging another person. (Allen E. Roberts, The Craft and Its Symbols, 1974, pg. 43)

When a brother is in danger of any kind, it is your duty to advise him of his impending peril. In doing so, you must remember that it is not by your "plumb line" that you judge him, but by his. And it is his Square and his Level, not yours, by which you are to determine his actions. His opinions may differ from yours politically or religiously, but they are his tools, not yours. When he goes astray from his principles, then and only then, should you quietly remind him that he is in error. Then you should assist him to find the right track for him to follow. (Ibid, pg. 90)

What is clear from all of this is that the morality in Masonry is a man-centered one, though it is fair to say that some moral prohibitions do exist within Masonic law. But the Mason is instructed to determine his own morality, then live within it.

You are really equating a solemn obligation with a bunch of obscenities graffitied on a building? Thanks for that nice tid-bit, I guess we know where we stand.

My point was that words have meanings, and if one holds that they do not, of what import were those such a man used while kneeling at the Lodge altar?

In the larger sense, my view is that any use of profane language cheapens both writer and reader. Surely the ideas we express are adorned by the words we use. In the grafitti case, I see no need to quote what was left on the wall to express the outrage over the action. BTW, that Masons should avoid the type of language I objected to has its roots in the Constitutions of 1723, Section V:

The Craftsmen are to avoid all ill language, and to call each other by no disobliging Name, but Brother or Fellow; and to behave themselves courteously within and without the Lodge.†(quoted in Coil’s Masonic Encyclopedia, 2nd edition)

So the Decalogue is the “general statementsâ€, correct?

Within the context I used, yes. It applies to all who claim them followers of God. It is useful to also note that God did not clarify his views, or argue their validity or state the penalties for their violation. He just expressed his moral view of right and wrong. It's the perfect example of the God-centered morality I was addressing. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Traveling Man]

No, I think it accurate. Also illuminating is the lack of muslims standing up to condemn such behavior. Should one Mason be found passed out drunk in front of a Lodge, all Masons would be judged by his actions. Fairly or unfairly, it's how actions are seen.

Then this gives me the liberty of painting you the same as the Westboro Baptist as you are also a christian.

Ask him. As well, ask him upon what authority does he base his understanding of his God. All views of God have an authoritative source (e.g., Bible, Torah, Koran, etc.) and our knowledge comes from the source we hold to be authoritative. Upon which VSL did you take your obligations and oath? Did you not hold it authoritative on such matters?

I did and I gave you his answer; the G_D of Abraham! And it is none of your concern upon which VSL I made my obligations. (Thanks for going there...).

My point was that words have meanings, and if one holds that they do not, of what import were those such a man used while kneeling at the Lodge altar?

Your intent spoke to itself! I know for a fact this is truly what you meant and believe.

I do not have anything from Texas, but here are a few you may wish to consider on the topic:

Nice try, quoting someone that's deceased that's not here to properly frame those quotes.
I have several Masonic jurisprudence books that mentions nothing of which you are trying to say, you're trying to make an abstract statement into a binding law! Wow!

Within the context I used, yes. It applies to all who claim them followers of God. It is useful to also note that God did not clarify his views, or argue their validity or state the penalties for their violation. He just expressed his moral view of right and wrong. It's the perfect example of the God-centered morality I was addressing.

So now the decalogue are views? Have you ever heard the term "Commandments"?

 

[widows son]

Skip,
I am wondering what happens when you see other obscenities in other places and how you react. If you don't like cursing and wander into something, than that's your problem, I quoted it because that was part of the topic I wanted to display, and wasn't directed toward you or anyone else. Perhaps obscenities have no place in masonry but I think your religious conviction is making you say that and not your own thoughts. Have you never stubbed your toe and yelled a curse word? I can guarantee you have. My obligation. All the obligations I took in masonry were the one of the most important things I've done in my life. I took an obligation of fidelity to my brotherhood, it's laws, it's landmarks, not betray the secrets or my fellow brethren, which includes you skip, and everyone on this forum, although. We have never met. Do not ask me if my obligation was meaningless, as i take offense to that especially when you bring in Jesus. Jesus has nothing to do with the obligations we took, Jesus can note all he wants,other people have used that quote too. So are words just words? Yes they are. The obligation represents something, the words are just the medium to convey. Muslims Christian and Jews worship the God of Abraham, so yea it is the same God in a sense, just interpreted differently based on the different people it influences. As for your God centered morality, I can hardly believe that God would concern himself with us, especially since that there are probably more intelligent beings in our universe, unless you believe God to be a white man sitting on a cloud waiting to punish. Morality is based off of the sufferings of other humans, and humans recognizing this. The Masonic moral code is based off this, which among other things helps us realize ultimate truth in the GATOU. I you can't honestly figure out on your own that stealing is wrong, than that's an issue. What about Polynesian cultures who have a strict moral code, essentially they same as ours and have no concept of a single God? Masonic morality is found in our rituals and landmarks that have come down to us. Skip this topic was on anti masonry, and I don't know how or why this became a religious subject, but in no offense to you at all, I think you think too much with the bible, which compromises your own opinion. People wrote the bible not God. Using 16th and 17th century thinking to amylose everything can only be harmful. Again I am not trying to offend you, you are my brother and so is everyone on this forum. And as for watch what we say in front of our enemies, i think we are all allies here,
Cordially,
Widows Son

 

[T.N. Sampson]

Then this gives me the liberty of painting you the same as the Westboro Baptist as you are also a christian.

Indeed it does, at least until you research them and find that they are more of a family than a church, and not affliiated with any Baptist Convention. As well, their acts give lie to their claim to be Christians. After such research, you can no longer compare my actions to theirs.

I did and I gave you his answer; the G_D of Abraham!

You missed the point.

I know for a fact this is truly what you meant and believe.

Must be interesting to have such insight into my motivations and beliefs.

Nice try, quoting someone that's deceased that's not here to properly frame those quotes.

Mr. Roberts book speaks for itself. It's also a pretty influential book that is often found in GL bookstores and in a large percent of Masonic libraries.

I have several Masonic jurisprudence books that mentions nothing of which you are trying to say, you're trying to make an abstract statement into a binding law!

Not really. I'm showing where 10 GL's agree with the point I'm making, to say nothing of the MSA. Cordially, Skip.

 

[T.N. Sampson]

I am wondering what happens when you see other obscenities in other places and how you react.

Same way I react here: I try to convince them that profanities degrade themselves and the entire forum community.

I quoted it because that was part of the topic I wanted to display,

Understood, but why was the direct quote necessary? It was your anger towards the graffitti that was at issue. The words themselves were unnecessary to the discussion, and quite offensive.

Perhaps obscenities have no place in masonry but I think your religious conviction is making you say that and not your own thoughts.

My thoughts stem from my religious convictions. How a person sees the world is called his 'worldview' and that view usually comes through his religious beliefs.

Have you never stubbed your toe and yelled a curse word?

Indeed I have, though in private. We're never in complete control, but I avoid the use of profanity for the simple reason that it's not a practice I can see God approving.

So are words just words? Yes they are. The obligation represents something, the words are just the medium to convey.

I don't see how you can come to such a conclusion, especially considering the penalties you incurred. Let's not go there, but words carry freight, which is why we should be real careful about what we say.

Muslims Christian and Jews worship the God of Abraham, so yea it is the same God in a sense, just interpreted differently based on the different people it influences.

I do not agree, but it's not something that needs to be addressed on this forum.

I can hardly believe that God would concern himself with us,

I can. He's shown that concern by dying for our sins. But your beliefs are your own, and I do not presume to challenge them.

Skip this topic was on anti masonry, and I don't know how or why this became a religious subject

I don't see it as such. At issue was whether Masonry teaches a man-centered or God-centered morality. I, and many GL's, hold to the former view. But, your point is taken: perhaps Masonic Morality should be a separate thread.

People wrote the bible not God.

Your personal view seems to conflict with the Masonic concepts of the Three Great Lights and the VSL. If it is man-made, why would it be called the rule and guide to faith and practice? If man-made, how could it have made your obligations more binding? If man-made, why is it considered an indespensable piece of Lodge furniture, without which the Lodge cannot be opened? Wouldn't a telephone book have sufficed just as well if you are correct? Cordially, Skip.