Fidelity-

[David612]

Good morning Gents,
Recently I was listening to Jay-z’s 4:44 album and there are references to his much publicised extramarital affaire-
As a hip hop star the stereotype has this as par for the course however, listening to the tracks it does seem to have hurt him and he does seem remorseful, listening to Beyoncé’s lemonade album gets the other side of this.
It got me thinking, as Jay is a mason that raises some questions.
What do you think about masons who have not upheld their wedding vows?

 

[Brother_Steve]

I've never heard hard facts that jz is or ever was a mason.

 

[David612]

I've never heard hard facts that jz is or ever was a mason.

True-
He and Rick Ross released the song Free mason for ever ago so I is an assumption but still interesting.
Apathy does some great work and is known to be a mason.

Still what do you think- is a breach of your word like an affair reasonable grounds for the fraternaty to take any kind of action?

Just an interesting thought experiment

 

[Bloke]

I am not sure I am willing to judge another Brother - my VSL says not to.

That said, a core of being a Freemason is integrity, and hence any promise should be kept... yet we're also human and to err is part of being human and my gut says we should share a tear of sympathy on the failings of a brother.

Like all things in life, why I can try to influence others, the only person I can control is myself. Therefore I am much more interested in my (hopefully good) conduct than the faults of other others.

 

[David612]

I am not sure I am willing to judge another Brother - my VSL says not to.

That said, a core of being a Freemason is integrity, and hence any promise should be kept... yet we're also human and to err is part of being human and my gut says we should share a tear of sympathy on the failings of a brother.

Like all things in like, why I can try to influence others, the only person I can control is myself. Therefore I am much more interested in my (hopefully good) conduct than the faults of other others.

So you are of the opinion that breaching a wedding vow is not an issue for a mason?

Im inclined to agree with you personally however the idea has be floated before that a person who can’t up hold one obligation can’t be trusted to uphold another.
What say you?

 

[Elexir]

True-
He and Rick Ross released the song Free mason for ever ago so I is an assumption but still interesting.
Apathy does some great work and is known to be a mason.

Still what do you think- is a breach of your word like an affair reasonable grounds for the fraternaty to take any kind of action?

Just an interesting thought experiment

IF he is a freemason that is up to his own GL to take any action that they see fit.

I tend to avoid even trying to judge people I dont know as I dont know the persons involved.

Can he still be trusted? Will he break his obligation?
Those are questions we dont know as we have not talked with anyone involved.
Maybe he is regretting what he has done and is seeking repentence?
If so, who are we to judge.

Tl:dr If what he has done is against his lodge or GL bylaws, they should take action.
If not we shouldnt care and stop feeding into the cult of celeberties.

Disclaimer: the above is a thought experiment. As no GL has claimed him as a member in any of the lodges under him he is most likley not a member.

 

[David612]

I thinky you guys are getting bogged down in my example-
The jay reference is there to illustrate a situation-

 

[Elexir]

I thinky you guys are getting bogged down in my example-
The jay reference is there to illustrate a situation-

Re-read my post. It applies to anyone, Jayz wouldnt be over the same rules that applies to any other freemason so basicly switch Jay Z with John Doe.

 

[Warrior1256]

Like all things in like, why I can try to influence others, the only person I can control is myself.

Very good.

I tend to avoid even trying to judge people I dont know as I dont know the persons involved.

Same here.

 

[CLewey44]

I think extramarital affairs are a lot more complicated than being able to keep a Masonic obligation or not. As others have said, to err is human and men have one primary disadvantage, testosterone. It can get us in trouble sometimes from road rage, ego and of course venturing outside of marriage. Not saying women don't have these same issues at times. Also, when a man cheats, he may be the best human being in every other aspect of his life and has one major weakness; the fairer sex. Perhaps he's angry at his wife for something or she isn't fulfilling her end of the deal. There are dozens if not hundreds of 'reasons' (not to be confused with excuses) a man (or a woman for that matter) cheats on their spouse. It's a complicated situation and I don't think a man going through something like that should be abandoned by his fraternity. That would likely cause him further grief.

 

[Warrior1256]

There are dozens if not hundreds of 'reasons' (not to be confused with excuses) a man (or a woman for that matter) cheats on their spouse. It's a complicated situation and I don't think a man going through something like that should be abandoned by his fraternity. That would likely cause him further grief.

Absolutely agree! If the fraternity is only going to be around during the good times and desert a Brother when he needs support the most that would be unkind in the extreme and, in my opinion, fly in the face of what Masonry is supposed to be.

 

[hfmm97]

But what if hypothetical brother hypothetically cheated with another hypothetical brother’s wife? Not to go esoteric or anything but I guess that would result in a hypothetical expulsion for the hypothetically cheating “brother”?


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[hfmm97]

Hypothetically speaking a’course (in Texan English -yee haaa!)


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[CLewey44]

But what if hypothetical brother hypothetically cheated with another hypothetical brother’s wife? Not to go esoteric or anything but I guess that would result in a hypothetical expulsion for the hypothetically cheating “brother”?


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That is different and is breaking a clear-cut obligation of vlt the chs of said Mason's wife. Blanket statements like when we stand before the WM in the NE on our degree night, that's a little vague vs. this example. Messing around with a brother's wife is a lot more personal and would/could effect the lodge as a whole.

 

[Elexir]

But what if hypothetical brother hypothetically cheated with another hypothetical brother’s wife? Not to go esoteric or anything but I guess that would result in a hypothetical expulsion for the hypothetically cheating “brother”?


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Cant see any good reason unless it violates any bylaws. All the involved parties are grownups and should be able to handle it between themself.

 

[coachn]

I don't ever want to assume the vows I took are the ones that were taken by another.

 

[Warrior1256]

I don't ever want to assume the vows I took are the ones that were taken by another.

Good point!

 

[Brother_Steve]

True-
He and Rick Ross released the song Free mason for ever ago so I is an assumption but still interesting.
Apathy does some great work and is known to be a mason.

Still what do you think- is a breach of your word like an affair reasonable grounds for the fraternaty to take any kind of action?

Just an interesting thought experiment

There is nothing in my oath or obligation that requires a Freemason to be brought up on charges for an affair so long as it was not with a Brother's wife.

I can choose to distance myself as a friend if I was a part of their personal lives. However, I would not cause disharmony in the lodge if we were both present.

Also, if I become aware of the affair, I would not be a part of helping him by covering for him. I may ask him to think of his involvement in the lodge until his issues are resolved, but there is nothing I could "legally" do to enforce that request.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[Warrior1256]

Also, if I become aware of the affair, I would not be a part of helping him by covering for him.

Agreed.

I can choose to distance myself as a friend if I was a part of their personal lives.

Which is what I would do.

I may ask him to think of his involvement in the lodge until his issues are resolved, but there is nothing I could "legally" do to enforce that request.

Agreed.

 

[David612]

I was thinking of it more in a “he took a vow with friends and family to be faithful and has fallen short, why would he maintain his fidelity in a Masonic context given some other temptation” context- interesting replies guys-don’t know that I fall into any of the view points presented nor do I know how I would feel if the situation really presented itself.