For Freemasons, Is Banning Gays Or Being Gay Un-Masonic? : NPR

Discussion in 'Masonic Blogs' started by My Freemasonry, Mar 22, 2016.

  1. WV719

    WV719 Registered User

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    Unfortunately for us as Kentucky Freemason we have a problem with our book of constitutions the phrase of "moral turpitude" which some of our brothers use to target brothers who could be gay or really for anything that they can squeeze under that. I personally agree with you I don't care who a brother sleeps with it does not make one bit of difference as to weather or not he can be a good man and a good mason.
     
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  2. goomba

    goomba Neo-Antient Site Benefactor

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    https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm...-1934-appendix-d-grounds-judicial-deportation
    https://www.aclualabama.org/en/crimes-moral-turpitude
    https://dpa.ky.gov/Public_Defender_Resources/Documents/CollateralConsequencesManualFINAL051513.pdf

    I am a federal law enforcement officer. With that in mind I'd like to address the term "moral turpitude" as I believe a good deal of grand lodges have this catch all phrase in their laws/rules/code/or whatever else governs the Craft. I have posted three links above dealing with three sovereign jurisdictions stance on moral turpitude.

    The justice.gov link speaks of administrative hearings (which I believe is the best context as our Masonic Trials are administrative in nature). It defines Moral Turpitude as: a nebulous concept, which refers generally to conduct that shocks the public conscience.

    The State of Alabama has a list of crimes which it determines to be crimes of moral turpitude.

    The Kentucky Department of Public Advocacy (2013) defines moral turpitude as: Moral turpitude means, in general, shameful wickedness – so extreme a departure from ordinary standards of honest, good morals, justice, or ethics as to be shocking to the moral sense of the community. It has also been defined as an act of baseness, vileness, or depravity in the private and social duties which one person owes to another, or to society in general, contrary to the accepted and customary rule of right and duty between people.

    The common theme between all three of these is: a standard of behavior deemed unacceptable by society.

    Homosexual (and many other sexual minorities) have been deemed acceptable by Western society for some time. In the USA this has been done via state laws, federal laws, and various case laws. Moral turpitude is reserved for the worst of the worst: murder, rape, child pornography, acts of terror, etc. Being a relationship with someone of the same sex is not on that level not even close. Yes it may offend an individuals personal morality and yes it may violate certain tenants of certain faith groups. However, society has deemed it morally acceptable.

    If we allow our personal/religious beliefs to add additional standards to the Craft do not be surprised when those standards not accepted by society cause society to reject us. If we can have men gather who believe they worship a different god or the only true interpretation of god with men of different creeds it just seems silly to draw a line in the sand in the bedroom. Do we really believe the sacred is negotiable and this we can set aside for the betterment of mankind? But sexual difference we just can't see past? We are better than that.


    A few notes:
    *admis/mods if this is better suited in another location feel free to move it
    *if it is deemed to controversial feel free to delete it
    *if a brother more legally educated finds an error in the above please point it out
     
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  3. Ross Thompson

    Ross Thompson Site Benefactor

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    Necroposting should be of moral turpitude...

    Not really... Some good stuff here to think about.

    Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
     
  4. jermy Bell

    jermy Bell Registered User

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    Trace your way back 40 + years ago, these are things I've heard from Mason's that have been Mason's 40 -50 + years, plus from my father in law who has been a mason coming on 46 years.
    Homosexuality was not acceptable, you had to be a upright citizen in your community, they asked you to become a mason, and what could you contribute to the lodge and craft, and personal things was dealt with by your peers , like if you was in trouble or caused trouble. So, yes I guess the definition has changed dramatically over the years so no one feels left out.
     
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  5. TheThumbPuppy

    TheThumbPuppy Registered User

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    Not that long in fact.

    It was only in 1967 when the UK decriminalised sexual acts between two men and in 1988 Section 28 became law and it was repealed only in 2000.

    The first countries to legalise marriage for same-sex couples were the Netherlands in 2001 and Belgium in 2003.

    Most of these changes have occurred in our living memory.

    In quite a few countries in Europe, including Germany, Ireland and Italy, marriage for same-sex couples is still not legal.
    [​IMG]

    Reports show that some countries in Europe are 'moving backwards on equality for first time in a decade.' https://www.euronews.com/2019/05/14...ackwards-on-equality-for-first-time-in-a-deca

    It is also possible that the changes in demographics in Western and Northern Europe will lead to a majority of people with religiously- and culturally-motivated strong opinions against especially gay men by as early as 2050. It is not outside the realm of possibilities for many of the recent legal achievements to be wiped off and homosexuality become illegal again in our life's span, as is often the case in the countries of origin of these populations.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2020
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  6. jermy Bell

    jermy Bell Registered User

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    I like the military way then. Don't ask, don't tell.
     
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  7. TheThumbPuppy

    TheThumbPuppy Registered User

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    I served for 4 years as an Army officer under that paradigm.

    Still if you were to be "discovered", you would be discharged with dishonour, which doesn't seem fair to me.
     
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  8. jermy Bell

    jermy Bell Registered User

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    I m 48 and was always taught to not air your dirty laundry or otherwise. I worked with a kid for 8 years, never knew he was gay. I asked him why he never told me? Btw I do have gay friends , he said it wasn't anyone's business. But we live in a world now, that nothing is private, and you have to be liked and accepted for what you are. Not who you are.
     
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  9. TheThumbPuppy

    TheThumbPuppy Registered User

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    I can sympathise. I also like to keep my private life private. I've never felt the urge to waste my time on facebook, instagram, etc and I don't consider my life so noteworthy to chronicle it on social media.

    Very true. Welcome to identity politics. I wouldn't want to start a controversy, but I find it disappointing that identity politics – that is authoritarian in nature – has been embraced by political groups that used to be known for their libertarianism – that included (among others) the principles of voluntary association and individual judgement. In other words I also find that we get judged for what particular racial, religious, ethnic, sexual, social, cultural or other group we are perceived to belong to, and not for who we are as an individual, our own individual thoughts, principles and actions.

    Even worse, I find that identity politics on one hands despotically demonises some groups (for example, white males) and automatically lables everybody belonging to that group with certain attributes (for example, all white males are racist), and on the other hand sanctifies some other groups (some of which in my view are made up or imaginary) and attributes virtuous qualities to everybody belonging to them.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
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  10. goomba

    goomba Neo-Antient Site Benefactor

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    This would be an issue the moment a lodge had a family event.
     
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  11. goomba

    goomba Neo-Antient Site Benefactor

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    NOTE: emphasis mine

    I can completely understand a coworker not knowing much about my personal life. No one I work with knows my wife's name or where my house is. But we are not talking about a work. We are talking a brotherhood. If you can't tell your brother anything about your family or the person you love I question the validity of that brotherhood. I would never consider my brother telling be about his family as dirty laundry.
     
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  12. jermy Bell

    jermy Bell Registered User

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    I'm assuming you have no idea what DIRTY laundry is.
     
  13. TheThumbPuppy

    TheThumbPuppy Registered User

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    Very good point.
     
  14. goomba

    goomba Neo-Antient Site Benefactor

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    That would be an interesting topic in 2050 and I applaud the effort in your post brother! I hadn't thought about the swing in the opposite direction. I think the best reply to that possibility is a poem of sorts.

    First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
    Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.
    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
    Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
     
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  15. goomba

    goomba Neo-Antient Site Benefactor

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    I'm a human and a law enforcement officer trust me I know what dirty laundry is. I still fail to see how the knowledge of someone being gay is equal to airing dirty laundry.
     
  16. jermy Bell

    jermy Bell Registered User

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    Dirty laundry, your private life, what other people don't need to know on things you do behind closed doors, it's like masonry, do you announce what we do behind our closed doors ? Do you announce that you are a mason and what chair you hold to everyone you meet ? Has nothing to do with if you are gay or straight or whatever your preference is to anything. I think that some things are taken way out of content and read to deep into. Think back, did your parents tell you everything about themselves ? Did their own families know every detail of your parents life ? I'm sure they did not. So, once again, if you are gay, fine, but a lot of gays don't want other people to know, because they believe it's not everyone's business to know. Doesn't make you any less of a person. If you or anyone else remembers, it's not the outside of a man we look at, it's the inside of a man that is his true worth.
     
  17. goomba

    goomba Neo-Antient Site Benefactor

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    Again if a brother cannot tell his brother about the existence of his partner there is a problem with the brotherhood. I have mentioned nothing about sharing private acts that happen in a bedroom nor anything about external qualifications. Everything I've mentioned is dealing with internal matters of the heart.

    I do not announce my membership to everyone I meet. But that is not the issue at hand here at all. I am talking once again in the narrow scope of a brotherhood and this specific setting only.
     
  18. jermy Bell

    jermy Bell Registered User

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    I understand, but there is A lot my brethren don't know about me that I don't go out of my way to make known. And vise versa. It's just not that big of a deal. But guessing you are or are exlaw enforcement, you would feel the need to know everything about whom you deal with.
     
  19. TheThumbPuppy

    TheThumbPuppy Registered User

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    That's the way I interpreted at first. I lived in London, UK most of my life. I'm tempted to say that that's what we generally mean over here.

    After one other post, I did look up "dirty laundry" on the Oxford Dictionary, which confirmed that dirty laundry was Personal or private affairs that one does not want to be made public.

    However when I looked it up on dictionary.com (which is prevalently US English) it said personal or private matters that could cause embarrassment if made public.

    They are two rather different interpretations of dirty laundry.

    While I value my privacy and don't feel the need to divulge my private life left, right and center, (I believe that's my British bit) I hope that we'll never get (or return) to a point where if one was outed that would be a source of any lengthy embarrassment (or worse).

    Said that, if I wanted to talk about some of my private matters, wouldn't a Brother be the best man to confide in? I cannot answer that from experience yet, but I would hope so.
     
  20. goomba

    goomba Neo-Antient Site Benefactor

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    Knowing that a brother has a wife/husband/girlfriend/boyfriend/single is a far cry from knowing everything about someone. If that is what you consider to much information for even your brothers to know, then you and I have a vastly different understanding of friendship and brotherhood. I have never once hinted we should know everything about each other in any way. Nor do I even believe it is possible to know everything about someone.
     
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