Freemasonry and Moors

[Warrior1256]

I recently came across some theories about a Moorish connection by way of the Templars. It was an interesting connection of dots with some pretty big leaps in between. I'll admit, however, to it pointing out a few things that are not easily explained away.

The basics are that Hugues de Payens' coat of arms had 3 Moorish heads on it and the theory is that he was taught by Moorish Sufis and then formed the Templars and continued the mystical teachings which eventually found its way to Freemasonry.

I'm not saying I believe it, but there are some theories out there.

Interesting!

 

[hanzosbm]

I'm not sure where this link will take you within the document, but chapter 7 discusses the Sufi/Moor/Templar/Cathar/etc link.

https://books.google.com/books?id=4...TAD#v=onepage&q=hugues de payens sufi&f=false

I haven't fully fact checked the statements, but there's some interesting stuff in there.

 

[MarkR]

The basics are that Hugues de Payens' coat of arms had 3 Moorish heads on it and the theory is that he was taught by Moorish Sufis and then formed the Templars and continued the mystical teachings which eventually found its way to Freemasonry.

I just did a quick search on this, and what I found said that de Payens did not have a coat of arms, because heraldry didn't exist yet.

 

[hanzosbm]

I just did a quick search on this, and what I found said that de Payens did not have a coat of arms, because heraldry didn't exist yet.

Fantastic! Like I said, I didn't do much digging, but I really appreciate that. His marriage to Catherine de Saint Claire also seems to be completely fabricated and I can't find any contemporary genealogy records indicating his father or grandfather (the so called Moor Gardille). There are lots of sites out there claiming it, but they all seem to reference books written in the last century. As for the book I linked earlier, upon further reading, it is so biased that I have a hard time believing anything in it. Once I got to the passage claiming that all European nobility can trace it's ancestry to Mohammad, I quit reading.

 

[MasonicAdept]

"Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Baal the Canaanite word for the supreme being?

Yes, it is, but you have to understand Moorish American thought and philosophy to understand why they would connect to the Canaanite terminology for the Supreme Being.
Moorish-Americans believe that they are the descendants of Ancient Canaanites.
In fact, the first person to come and bring the Moorish philosophy and doctrine to the African American community was Timothy Drew aka Noble Drew Ali, in 1913 the first Temple was established in New Jersey, and was called the Canaanite Temple. In 1925, it was called the Moorish Holy Temple of Science, and reincorporated in 1928 as a religious body called the Moorish Science Temple of America, in Chicago, Illinois.

I actually was a member of the MST of A under Bro. R. Jones-Bey for some years. I was an Adept and Grand Governor in North Carolina. I left several years ago.

​

 

[Dontrell Stroman]

Are you still a follower of the Moorish religion ?

 

[Glen Cook]

I just did a quick search on this, and what I found said that de Payens did not have a coat of arms, because heraldry didn't exist yet.

Well, I can't say that de Payens had a coat of arms, but in the 12th C heraldic items such as seals were in use and c. 1155, the tomb of Geoffery de Plaganet had armorial bearings. See Fox-Davies, A Complete Guide to Heraldry, p. 62. Additionally, the surcoat from whence the term coat of arms may derive was used in the period of the crusades. We see the use of heraldry in the Bayeaux Tapestry reflecting the 1066 events, which only a few of us remember. The first roll of arms was 1298. Lionheart used arms in 1198, etc

The more important question for this purpose, though, is the inheritance of arms. Scopes v Grosvenor was at least one of the earliest trials in inheritance, but that was not until 1389, with the facts arising in the 1385 invasion of Scotland, with Grosvenor -claiming- his ancestor brought the arms in the 1066 invasion.

So, it is plausible that de Payans bore arms, but not likely they were inherited and not to my knowledge proveable in a court of heraldry (with which I have some experience).

(Guess who is a Fellow of the Society of Scottish Armigers and can and will bang on about this forever).

 

[MasonicAdept]

Are you still a follower of the Moorish religion ?

No, as stated in and earlier comment, I left several years ago.

A couple things to point out though:

1. The Moorish Science Temple of America is not the RELIGION, it is the religious organization that claims to restore the nationality of African Americans.

2. The religion practiced by Moorish Americans is Islam.

 

[Dontrell Stroman]

Is this the same organization that has "pro black" roots and Pan African Ideology ? The reason I ask, I ran into a gentleman that claimed to be a moor. He continued to tell me that that I was in a organization that hated blacks. And that I did not need to be a freemason to learn the secrets of Freemasonry, as the moors have all the knowledge we posse.

 

[MasonicAdept]

Is this the same organization that has "pro black" roots and Pan African Ideology ? The reason I ask, I ran into a gentleman that claimed to be a moor. He continued to tell me that that I was in a organization that hated blacks. And that I did not need to be a freemason to learn the secrets of Freemasonry, as the moors have all the knowledge we posse.

LOL...While the MST of A is definitely an organization that is directed to the African American community, they do not teach hate for another race, or pro-black ideology. They actually advocate citizenship in the American Republic. An American Flag stands by the Moroccan Flag in every Temple under the Moorish Divine and National Movement. They are not a "back to Africa" group...They are a "give us our portion of America" organization...

You have to understand that after the death of Noble Drew Ali in 1929, the MSTA split into 3 factions, and that number continued to fracture until you have a multiplicity of Moorish groups, who hold their own interpretation of the doctrine taught by Noble Drew Ali.

 

[Dontrell Stroman]

Interesting, to me the Pan African part would fall under "Give us our portion "

 

[MasonicAdept]

Interesting, to me the Pan African part would fall under "Give us our portion "

It is definitely what the Moorish Divine and National Movement falls under...