Homosexual and Bisexual Brother Masons

Discussion in 'General Freemasonry Discussion' started by Mason653, Jun 29, 2013.

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  1. Bro. Stewart P.M.

    Bro. Stewart P.M. Lead Moderator Emeritus Staff Member

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    Point(s) of Interest:
    (I by no means are supporting or condoning your post here, simply a reference of subjects)

    1) You have made a very valid point here, "your religion". Masonry is not a single religion, nor does it specify one religion being superior over another. Therefore, what is good for you may or may not be good for me. Until such religious definitions are made... well, you see where I am going with this. Also such a declaration would kill the fraternity as it sits today, it would not be as successful or enduring.

    2) The fraternity does not specifically inquire as to the sexual nature of its petitioners, nor odes it specifically ban them from petitioning via bylaws. Therefore, until such legislation is passed, it apparently has no "play" in the assessment of a man's "sound mind and body" nor does it affect his "good report" IF he was truly and properly vouched for by worthy Brothers who SHOULD know the petitioner.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2013
  2. Bro. Stewart P.M.

    Bro. Stewart P.M. Lead Moderator Emeritus Staff Member

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    Look gentlemen, I have homosexual friends and each of them would make great Masons AND you would never know that they were gay...

    I guarantee that there are homosexual Brethren active in Lodges all over this Nation right now. If you did not have an issue with them yesterday, there certainly won't be any changes tomorrow. They are not going to "come out" and make advances to you. They are going to keep quiet and pray that no one ever discovers their truth resulting in them being forcefully removed from the Fraternity that they love as much as you and I do.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2013
  3. sands67

    sands67 Premium Member

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    As long as they meet the criteria for being a mason sexual orientation should not make a difference. That is the bottom line in my books. If a mason ballots against a person based on sexual orientation he is acting due to his own personal beliefs and not necessarily his msaonic teachings.

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  4. Mason653

    Mason653 Registered User

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    I like how this discussion has grown. This is a learning experience. I'm enjoying the feed back.




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  5. cutter2001

    cutter2001 Premium Member

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    I personally am sick and tired of a person's bedroom practices being made the end all and be all of how we classify people today. If your for homosexual marriage your tolerant. If your not your a bigot. So says 5 justices of the Supreme Court here in the US. Amazing that just a few years ago the same tolerant folks that support marriage "equality", where the very bigots that voted and signed DOMA into law.
    Now we are asked about homosexuals in the Lodge. The same lodges that still prohibit our dark skinned brothers to visit and fellowship with us in many lodges throughout the US. In my opinion, lets worry about the truly oppressed, and those oppressed because of absolutely no fault of their own, and correct the inequities in our lodges with our PH brethren before we concern ourselves about those that if they would just keep private matters PRIVATE would have no problems with the vast majority of society.
     
  6. Michael Hatley

    Michael Hatley Premium Member

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    I have a very close Brother who I get the same gist from. The part about if you oppose gay marriage you are a bigot and if you do you are tolerant stuff. To me, he seems a little defensive. I think most folks understand and respect the views of folks who simply define marriage as between a man and a woman and leave it at that.

    But it brings to mind another bit I heard from a different man just a few short months ago. About 15 seconds after uttering the word *igger, of which I was still reeling and trying to figure out how to address it, goes on a bit where he says that hell, if you say anything about race anymore you are considered a racist. To which I had to say I didn't know about that, but that I didn't care for that word.

    Anyway - the thing about the keeping private matters private, I agree. I don't think there is anyone who wants to turn Lodge into the Pride parade. There is a time and place for everything.

    But here is the rub - by forcing folks to keep their orientation quiet, we force them to live in fear. To live a lie, to constantly fear exposure. To stomach the jokes that are ignorantly, or worse, purposely told in their presence to make them feel uncomfortable, unwelcome and so forth.

    It is that fear that, personally, I'd take out of the equation.

    PH visitation is another issue, one that I personally feel very strongly about and believe in action.

    With this one, as far as Freemasonry is concerned - no laws have to be proposed, no edicts proclaimed, etc.

    I ask myself, which is the tougher problem to be faced with? Knowing you have same sex oriented members of a lodge who are forced to live in fear, and trying to work with Brothers to tell less insensitive jokes, to change the subject over and over, to worry about black balls for an openly homosexual man who is extremely qualified and so forth? Or, telling a flamboyantly gay man, in private, that they are making some of the Brethren uncomfortable and asking them to tone down their behavior?

    From a lodge management perspective, I'd prefer dealing with the second issue any day of the week and twice on Sundays. Not just because the approach isn't something to wrangle about hows, whys, and whatfors, but because you can bet with very strong odds that you'd get results in one single conversation.
     
  7. raymondhex

    raymondhex Registered User

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    Is it true that knight templars rituals tolerate homosexuals brothers??????


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  8. sands67

    sands67 Premium Member

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    No one should or will discuss any of "rituals" as you call them.

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  9. BryanMaloney

    BryanMaloney Premium Member

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    Re: Gay and Bi Brother Masons

    Can you be very certain that "it" is not already in your lodge?
     
  10. BryanMaloney

    BryanMaloney Premium Member

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    And, to me, a "man" who has ever condemned anyone to not being "a man" for the rest of his life is no longer a man until he abandons such a usurpation of God's privilege. As far as I have been taught, only One is qualified to judge anyone on an eternal basis. We humans are not to do so, and to do so is to try to steal God's holy Throne. It has nothing at all to do with "liberal" vs. "conservative", it has to do with humility vs. pride.

    "You are not a man, anymore"--prideful, sinful, usurping God's authority.
    "From what I have been taught you are sinning, and may imperil your soul." --less pride, does not usurp God's authority.
     
  11. Bro. Stewart P.M.

    Bro. Stewart P.M. Lead Moderator Emeritus Staff Member

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    As a Sir Knight I can tell you that the "mainstream" Order of the Temple makes NO reference to a candidates sexual orientation. At no point in York Rite Masonry (including degrees 1, 2, & 3) is sexual orientation made reference to or inquired about. It has quite frankly never been an issue through the ages, or the Ancient Charges would clearly make a stance one way or the other.

    It's okay the Brother has a valid question, there is no harm in asking. Surely you know what esoteric lines can and can not be crossed based upon the Obligations that you swore to abide by in your jurisdition.

    You certainly make a valid point. However, this thread is not about racism within the Fraternity it is about the acceptance or non-acceptance of homosexual Brethren.


    I will take this opportunity to remind all of the participants to Stay On Topic!
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2013
  12. crono782

    crono782 Premium Member

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    I don't want to diverge the topic, but food for thought: man can you imagine if we had to someday address transgender as well? :/ What a mind frag that would be, hah.


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  13. Heart of Stone

    Heart of Stone Registered User

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    Listen, I just gave my honest opinion on how I feel about homosexuals in the lodge, and I dont know for certain if their are any in my lodge.As far as G*d
    I wasn't condemning them, I was stating my feelings.And if their are any in my lodge its not publicize or shared with everyone.Im just not comfortable with the kind that wants everybody to know their gay.I have a old school friend that's gay, and we still talk and hang out, and he's flaming with his lifestyle, but when we talk he doesn't act that like that.I have the upmost respect for G*ds creations.
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    Last edited: Jul 2, 2013
  14. seanbenjamin

    seanbenjamin Registered User

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    I respect people's rights to have their views on this outside of lodge. But it doesn't seem like an appropriate topic for lodge or masonry. Personally I don't think that sexual orientation should have any factor on if someone should become a mason. How could one say this makes them less worthy or well qualified?


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  15. sands67

    sands67 Premium Member

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    According to the profile he is not a Mason. I do understand what you mean and thank you for the reminder.
     
  16. dfreybur

    dfreybur Premium Member

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    That actually happened somewhere in California the year I was SW. After the surgeries she was prevailed upon to demit from lodge, much to the relief of everyone around as they did not want to put the issue on trial. But then she joined the Amaranth getting signers to state they'd known her all her life. They'd known him all his life up to the point she completed her surgeries. I have no idea if I'm getting the pronouns right.

    The Amaranth was in a huge stink about it long after the expulsion trial. They asked for legislation to be put forward on the GL floor that year to include the words "natural born male" on the petition form. After a very brief discussion on the floor that it should be a private matter at the local level there was a vote. With around 1400 brothers in attendance it got a couple dozen yes votes. Down in flames.

    Weird doesn't even begin to describe it. As a California Mason I look at myself in the mirror, laugh ironically and tell myself "Only in California could such a soap opera come to vote at GL". I'm pretty weird on some issues but that's on such a different scale it was mind boggling.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2013
  17. relapse98

    relapse98 Registered User

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    I heard someone in our lodge make some pretty horrible comments about another brother that he presumed to be one of the above but I just chalked it up to an old man talking.

    Same as any other brother.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2013
  18. relapse98

    relapse98 Registered User

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    Re: Gay and Bi Brother Masons

    Why? Are they any less a Mason?
     
  19. relapse98

    relapse98 Registered User

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    Re: Gay and Bi Brother Masons

    I think if a straight man is openly out and flamboyant with it, it could be a problem.
     
  20. cutter2001

    cutter2001 Premium Member

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    I have no idea if I'm getting the pronouns right.

    It does get confusing? Doesn't it?
     
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