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how when and where

Frater Cliff Porter

Premium Member
In Masonry, you are right, no there aren't.
Statement made in reference to "classes."

There are also classes in Masonry. We must not just look at wording, but at practice and there most certainly are.

This is okay. Submission is a part of enlightenment and in allowing submission does not mean we allow weakness. But there are certainly classes. Texas officer installation ritual even references that it falls to certain individuals to lead.

Fear of division is is common, but it shows a fracture in the psyche. This stems from the same psychosis that creates complexes with authority that are detrimental.

When we can learn to know ourselves, feel good about who we are, we don't need to run around screaming about false equalities...it becomes unnecessary.
 

jvarnell

Premium Member
Statement made in reference to "classes."

There are also classes in Masonry. We must not just look at wording, but at practice and there most certainly are.

This is okay. Submission is a part of enlightenment and in allowing submission does not mean we allow weakness. But there are certainly classes. Texas officer installation ritual even references that it falls to certain individuals to lead.

Fear of division is is common, but it shows a fracture in the psyche. This stems from the same psychosis that creates complexes with authority that are detrimental.

When we can learn to know ourselves, feel good about who we are, we don't need to run around screaming about false equalities...it becomes unnecessary.

Oh man, This is mixing leadership roles and classes. The Freemasons are a group of people that have three leavels of knowledge not classes. When you vote on a new person the people that vote are at a leavel that has the most knowledge (MM) and not EA or FC but this is all classless. The officers are not of a higher class but the same class. When you have a cass type system there are classes and classes don't mix, mary or anything else. Masionary has rolls that anyone with the knowledge can fill. This is apart of freedom.

And somethings are more equal than other thing
 

Frater Cliff Porter

Premium Member
Leadership and class are often the same thing...ergo the ruling class.

Active Mason versus lazy Mason is an informal class.

We honor good ritualist, active members. We give pagentry to Grand Lodge officers. We most definitely celebrate class division.

It is not necessarily bad. But with all things, there are positive energies that can be derived from it as well.
 

jvarnell

Premium Member
Leadership and class are often the same thing...ergo the ruling class.

Active Mason versus lazy Mason is an informal class.

We honor good ritualist, active members. We give pagentry to Grand Lodge officers. We most definitely celebrate class division.

It is not necessarily bad. But with all things, there are positive energies that can be derived from it as well.

I know you are up in the Masonery ranks. But in many counteries the ruling classes are dictators which force people to do thing and force is not leadership.....ergo no class. Being free we can do as much as we wont or need to do or push the limits and lead. And in the world outside of the US it maybe jumping classes. As Masons we are of the same class but not equel in our ablitys, desires or skills....some lead and some don't it is up to us as free men. We celebrate good leaders and how they serve their followers. That is why we call is serving as ????? of the Grand lodge of ???????

Marxism talks of classes and how to divide and conquer them so they are subservient to the rulers. You see I did not say Leaders.
 

Frater Cliff Porter

Premium Member
I know you are up in the Masonery ranks.

Thank you for the vote of confidence, but I am not up in the Masonry ranks Brother.

I think you are arguing semantics at this point. Before we had klassenbewusst to describe our situation in the Marxist form that you are using, we had natural tendencies to divide and even to self segregate in some regards. Girls will hangout with girls until age such and such. We watch class form as one group of kids is always allowed to play sports, one group or kid is always at the top of the jungle gym, etc. It is part of natural societal configuration. I am not pretending its all positive. But I won't pretend after observing Masonry that it doesn't exist either so that I feel good about it.

A bigger question is do we truly believe a dues card or patent makes men who call themselves Masons equal? I don't. I happen to think that Mason is a title earned through a life lived daily like a Mason.
 

jvarnell

Premium Member
Cliff, You need to google your self and see what you find. There is a lotmore about you out there than little old me. I am just an EA about to take my profishency test tonight but I do know a few things about Masons you don't seam to remember from that and about life. I was the kid on the bench that is very comfortable with that. I am not a past Grand lecturer, but I know I am the same as you but I use the brain I was given to server so I can lead and not classify so I can say I am a leader. I beleive a Mason earns his title in life by serving to be a leader. I don't care about titles I just care about my brothers. I don't know what you are saying with your german I see no class consciousness in what I said.
 

BryanMaloney

Premium Member
Leadership and class are often the same thing

Class is a specific sociological concept in the context of this conversation. A "ruling class" is a class in that it is a mostly hereditary group united by specifics of status, power, dialect, familial relation, economics, profession groups, and many other elements beyond merely exercising "leadership".
 

SeeKer.mm

Premium Member
Now I can really see where this thread is getting fun. I think I understand where both sides are coming from. Seeing that we are taught as Masons that we meet on the level, it is a rather difficult concept to understand when it is said that there are classes in Masonry. However, I also see the point in giving allegiance and respect to those who take lead and we honor and respect them for their character and actions. I had a good lessons in this balance tonight. As luck would have it, I went to a table lodge, and unbeknownst to me, our Most Worship Grand Master of the State of CT Gary W. Arseneau was in attendance (he is a member of the host lodge). The man has a great charisma and emulated good character and leadership when he spoke to us as a group of Brethren. When the man spoke, people shut up and listened however, when he came to our table and spoke to us as individuals, I really felt at ease in conversing with him on the level and truly felt his brotherly love and friendship. When he gave me his Grand Master's Pin, I felt very honored and will wear it with pride. When I stated earlier in the thread that Masonry has no classes, I think I was thinking in more of the sociological sense of the word that Brother Maloney described, however, after experiencing tonight's table lodge, I see where leadership falls into play and in a way creates a class within the Fraternity, even it may be perceived and not necessarily inherited by birth, or determined on how much money you have, but then again a Master's Wages are not usually monetary....anyways I digress. To my EA Brothers and anyone else who has not been to a table lodge, I wholeheartedly recommend attending one. I know in the State of CT all table lodges are open on the EA degree so all can participate in this fellowship. Not sure about any other jurisdictions.
 

jvarnell

Premium Member
Well said SeeKer.mm as you can see I am notvery good at getting my word on paper (webpage) but I know that not having classes and welcoming others to the fraternity on the same level is what attracted me to masonary. I want the guy from the philippines that is now in Japan to want to be a Mason because of this.
 

Brent Heilman

Premium Member
I think some of the difference people are talking about here depend on how you are defining class. Like so many words in the English language it has multiple meanings and because one person is using it in a way you are not does not make them wrong. Yes, we all are on the level we each other, but one could just as easily say that the different classes of people we see in Masonry could be divided as the people who lead being one class, those who follow a different, and those that just want everything to stay the same in another. I agree with Brother Porter there is a class system at work here. Like he said we pay honors to certain people and acknowledge them in a certain way. It isn't a bad thing that we have it either. I just think that when someone says there are different classes people have a tendency to think of it like a royalty v. commoner type class. Besides if I recall correctly there is a little something we are all familiar with about there being 3 classes of workmen at the building of King Solomon's Temple.
 

BryanMaloney

Premium Member
A class system presumes rigidity--the low remain low with little to no opportunity to be raised and little to no inclination for the high to help raise them.
 

jvarnell

Premium Member
I think some of the difference people are talking about here depend on how you are defining class. Like so many words in the English language it has multiple meanings and because one person is using it in a way you are not does not make them wrong. Yes, we all are on the level we each other, but one could just as easily say that the different classes of people we see in Masonry could be divided as the people who lead being one class, those who follow a different, and those that just want everything to stay the same in another. I agree with Brother Porter there is a class system at work here. Like he said we pay honors to certain people and acknowledge them in a certain way. It isn't a bad thing that we have it either. I just think that when someone says there are different classes people have a tendency to think of it like a royalty v. commoner type class. Besides if I recall correctly there is a little something we are all familiar with about there being 3 classes of workmen at the building of King Solomon's Temple.


The original message had an infurance of social classes and I was trying to say to the new guy that we as free men and Masons are equal. I also don't see that the 3 degrees as classes but that of levels of knowledge as I think operative masons would about there knowledge. And the deferent postions within the lodge are levels of leadership and knowledge. Leaders that impart the knowledeg are serving their peers not teaching lower clases.
 

Brent Heilman

Premium Member
Only in certain systems though. There is also the idea of socio-economic mobility which allows people to move up in class through things like better education resulting from higher paying jobs, marriage, and other ways to change class through economic means. There is also intergenerational mobility and intragenerational mobility. There is mobility in classes through acheivement. Looks at some of the politicians today. Would say Marco Rubio is in the same class now as he was born in to? How about some of the NBA players? I would be hard pressed to call them in the same class now as they were when they were 10.

The problem here is how we are defining class. There are and will always be classes of people no matter where you look including Masonry. This is just my opinion though.
 

jvarnell

Premium Member
LOL HUH? What's that mean?

Well in the literal since it mean I have roped the calf and tied 3 of his legs together and he is prepaired for branding. When someone says it on a foram this is what I say it means, I am tired of this and will stop arguing about it.
 

Marc lester

Registered User
And that is why I want to to be a Freemason ! After seeing this thread and sharing me more knowledge I just hope I could a find a lodge near my place , was so surprise that this thread is so active and saw some of you sharing their points of view and knowledge :) thanks guys !
 

Frater Cliff Porter

Premium Member
I think to in our American culture especially, we have infused in our collective consciousness a distaste for the idea of class and a love of the underdog. It makes sense, we broke the royal class system supposedly when we formed our country. However, immediately it returned and provided much contention by the time of the Jefferson presidency when an entire political party was dedicated to the idea of a ruling aristocracy that shared power.

I simply think it is intellectually dishonest or even dangerous to decide something does not exist in place a or b because we love it and we don't like this thing we are discussing. Better to recognize its existence and manage it. The story of the shadow. Denial equals psychosis and recognition equals balance.
 
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