Hypothetical

[JBD]

While I in NO way condone the Brother's intransigence, the facts remain as follows:



2. As JW of the Lodge, JBD should KNOW the Law.

3. JBD's self-admitted attempt to send the Brother packing and his further "chastisement" of the Brother show not only a lack of knowledge of the Law, but also of basic principles of Masonry, beginning with a little something about "internal & external", which was taught in the EA work and reinforced in the MM degree. Further, the Brother probably "got his back up" due to the manner in which JBD challenged him, which I can certainly understand.
QUOTE]

As PM of two lodges Bill should know both the law and the charge to the FC. Apparently he has forgotten that charge.

As PM Bill should understand that he still is mischaracterizing my position and contniues to publicily denegrate me and is on the edge of defaming.

Legalism is probably more the reason your lodge is in decline versus a dress code.

I am done with this discussion.

 

[Traveling Man]

You ought to see our Grand Lodge- you'll see Brethren dressed in anything from 3 piece suits to bib overalls, and everything in between, and NO ONE, including the M:.W:., presumes to denigrate a Brother due to his dress.

Lest you be mistaken I have sat in your Grand Lodge and as I recall seeing were suits, but that may have been my faulty perception.

I do believe your Grand Lodge does address "Proper Attire". So far in this conversation (maybe it has slipped by me) I haven't seen any attempt to denigrate a Brother due to his dress. With that I'll leave this conversation as it is... I will not participate in any piques or quarrels...:smile:

 

[LRG]

Lest you be mistaken I have sat in your Grand Lodge and as I recall seeing were suits, but that may have been my faulty perception.

I do believe your Grand Lodge does address "Proper Attire". So far in this conversation (maybe it has slipped by me) I haven't seen any attempt to denigrate a Brother due to his dress. With that I'll leave this conversation as it is... I will not participate in any piques or quarrels...:smile:

A plenty of brethern wear overalls to TGL. Not a problem.
once again internal not external.
Very true TGL would not denigrate a brother for his dress.
I have no idea thou what would happen if someone showed up to TGL or Wardens banquet wearing shorts and sandals. Probally some good oncoming looks thou:biggrin:

 

[C_Cabra]

As a brother who has traveled and visited lodges here in Texas and in many other states I always, always ask before attending Lodge what the dresscode is. If it is a suit I get a suit and go if it is casual dress I wear slacks or blue jeans. I'm afraid that if I were a member of a lodge that required tux or suit and someone showed up in shorts and flip flops I would probably say something to them. Maybe "off the record" but something should be said. Unless the brother showed up there in distress and was asking for help I can't see a reason for disrespecting the lodges customs.

I am not an officer or familiar with the politics of the Grand Lodge so I have no legal ground in which to base my opinions. But I think it's fair to say that it is easy to tell when what is right is right and wrong is wrong.

I was also shocked at the tone of Bill Linz' post in a casual topic with a bunch of brothers voluntary giving their opinion. That type of criticism should have been given in a private message.

Publicly vilifying that brother was very rude. There might have been a more tactful way in getting your point across.

 

[Blake Bowden]

Oh my! Everyone take a deep breath and gather around for a...

 

[owls84]

Why do I feel dirty?

Well Bill Lins Stated the Law book does not give much here. But I gave the image that the Brother doing it was just doing it to be a pain in the tookus, so I would probably have to do as Brother JBD stated. I would let him know that I disapproved the need to not observe our tradition but I would still let them in. Now here is my second part of this question.

As a WM of the Lodge you take the charge to keep peace and harmony, at what expense do you or are you able to take that duty. Lets say this brother is doing it to ruffle feathers in the lodge and has made it clear. At what point does it become your duty to do something as WM?

Please keep in mind this is a very grey area so I am trying to see how the different lodges would handle such an issue.

 

[LRG]

Oh my! Everyone take a deep breath and gather around for a...

I will have to pass on that type of participation:biggrin:

Words typed can be meaningless and cold. Living off or near the coast, one is customed with wearing shorts and sandals. For which they are apart of casual attire. I saw a brother wearing shorts in lodge just the other night and quite frankly I did not recongnize him- he looked relaxed- and trust me he has done more for the craft than I could within the next 20 years.

Shorts are fine but speedos are not

 

[Bill Lins]

Speedos & sweaty group hugs- ewwwwwwwwwww!

 

[Bill Lins]

I gave the image that the Brother doing it was just doing it to be a pain in the tookus, so I would probably have to do as Brother JBD stated. I would let him know that I disapproved the need to not observe our tradition but I would still let them in.

Seems to me that if you acknowledge what he's doing, you're giving him what he wants. If you ignore his dress & treat him like any other Brother, it would take the fun out of it for him.

Lets say this brother is doing it to ruffle feathers in the lodge and has made it clear. At what point does it become your duty to do something as WM?

At the point when he says or does something (not within his rights- see below) in Lodge to disrupt the proceedings. Then he gets one warning. If he does it again, the WM should, at that point, have the Marshal remove the offending Brother from the room.

I saw an instance in a Lodge (not one of mine) awhile back. A Past DDGM & member of the Lodge began asking numerous questions about how the Lodge finances were being handled. The WM & several of the Brethren felt that he was doing it mainly to disrupt the harmony of the Lodge, which may or may not have been true. When the WM asked my advice, I counseled him to courteously answer every one of the Brother's questions truthfully & accurately. Even if the Brother's intent was to disrupt the Lodge, he had every right to ask his questions and receive proper answers. The WM accomodated him & there was no further trouble. BTW, that Brother has not been back to that Lodge or caused any more trouble.

 

[HKTidwell]

If it isn't completely obvious then for the record I'm relatively new to masonry. I did not grow up with a dad or grandpa that were masons so I have experienced this from a learn as you go pace. I read a story about 6 months or so ago that I have been looking for and couldn't find all night. I finally found it and am posting it.

Two Masons

His name is John. He has wild hair, wears a t-shirt with holes in it, jeans and no shoes. This was literally his wardrobe for his entire four years of college. He was the top of his class. Kind of esoteric and very, very bright. He became a Mason recently while attending college.

After moving to a new town, he finds that down the street from his new apartment is a well-dressed, very conservative Lodge. One day John decides to go there after work. He walks in with shoes, jeans, his work shirt, and long hair. The Lodge has already started and so John starts looking for a seat.

The Lodge is completely packed and he can't find a seat. By now the Brethren are really looking a bit uncomfortable, but no one says anything. John gets closer and closer to the East and, when he realizes there are no seats, he sits down right on the carpet. (Although perfectly acceptable behavior at a college fraternity, trust me, this had never happened in this Lodge before!) By now the Brethren are really uptight, and the tension in the air is thick. About this time, the Secretary realizes that from way at the back of the Lodge, a Past Master is slowly making his way toward John.

Now the Past Master is in his eighties, has silver-gray hair, and a three-piece suit. A good man, very elegant, very dignified, and very courtly. He walks with a cane and, as he starts walking toward this boy, everyone is saying to themselves that you can't blame him for what he's going to do. How can you expect a man of his age and of his background to understand some college kid in the Lodge? It takes a long time for the man to reach the boy.

The Lodge is utterly silent except for the clicking of the man's cane. All eyes are focused on him. You can't even hear anyone breathing. The Secretary can't even continue with the "Minutes" until the Past Master does what he has to do. And now the Lodge watches as this elderly man drops his cane on the floor. With great difficulty, he lowers himself and sits down next to John and welcomes him so he won't be alone.

When the Secretary gains control, he says, "What I'm about to say, you will never remember. What you have just seen, you will never forget."

Author Unknown


I guess I see two sides to this.
First if a brother is traveling then this may have been the only way he has ever dressed and may not know better. In asking him to change he may take offense and think the brothers have elevated themselves to a more lofty position then they should be. As has been said before the internal and not the external...

Second If a brother refuses to change and he actually has a change available, has he not violated the peace and harmony of the lodge. Has he not caused discontent within the fraternity? If he does not care for his brothers any more then this then why is he there?

I personally would think that a person would do some investigating before attending an unknown lodge. This seems to be the prudent thing to do, however I have seen brothers and PM attend practice in shorts and flip - flops and have not seen anybody offend. Typically for stated meetings, degrees, or the turning in of work it is always casual/business attire.

 

[Bill Lins]

Excellent post!

 

[owls84]

So Bro Bill this would be the question and the $1,000,000 answer. Could, due to the WM charge, not allow this "Brother" to sit into Lodge if upon investigation he was doing that simply to cause a scene? You know that a rational man could sit in Lodge but we also know that not all the members can handle such a change and would possibly say something. I believe that is why Bro. JBD stated he would let the members know so they themselves would not say something to degrade the Bro. I have just seen a Master brought up on charges for not keeping peace and harmony, so I am curious at what length one can go to enforce this? I mean if you forsee an issue can you not be proactive instead of reactive?

 

[TCShelton]

...but speedos are not

Whaaa??? Come on now.

I know we've had this debate on dress code before, and I'm always on the side of suits and ties. However, I don't see how you would throw someone out for not adhering to a "tradition." We have a member who frequently shows up to stated meetings in shorts, and as out of place as he looks, he doesn't seem all that bothered by it, although it peeves me to no end.

That being said, if it is that big of a deal, put the dress code in the by-laws, or leave it alone. If it isn't written down, I don't believe it should be enforceable.:beer:

 

[Wingnut]

You ought to see our Grand Lodge- you'll see Brethren dressed in anything from 3 piece suits to bib overalls, and everything in between, and NO ONE, including the M:.W:., presumes to denigrate a Brother due to his dress.

Very True! I always see a few in overalls, a lot in jeans, many with jeans and a sports coat and even a few in a tux.

Im late getting to this rodeo, but its never stopped me before so...

If the Brother is a member of the lodge in question he should be made aware that its unacceptable to wear shorts and flip flops per the bylaws if applicable.

If he is a traveling brother, I go back to my question from the past, do we try to keep brothers out or to get brothers IN to enjoy the fellowship?

If he is a traveling brother from a GL of TX lodge... "welcome brother!"

 

[TCShelton]

Good call Wingnut.

On the traveller issue, I think that any well-qualified traveller would contact the lodge beforehand and ask these questions. One could always post the dresscode in their lodge locator page.

 

[rhitland]

What kinda Joker would wear shorts to visit a Lodge unless he knew it was accepted, Nash Lodge seems a 150 degrees in the Lodge room and the old guys turn of the A/c so they can hear the WM but if you showed up in shorts they may have a hole to throw you in you might not be able to get out of!! LOL Just seems like the respectable thing to do wear pants on the first visit and coming from a guy who showed up for his FC in shorts I am not really hard nosed about this issue just see how it can help a Brother out by dressing up.

 

[RedTemplar]

My Brothers All, the lodge that I am a member of is located on Main Street, across from the Perry County Courthouse in Hazard, Kentucky. (You cain't git more Hillbilly than that)
You are welcome to visit my lodge anytime you feel like it. Now, I haven't ever seen a tuxedo worn in my lodge since I became a member some 31 years ago, but if you want to be the first I will guarantee will be the highlight of the evening and nobody will attempt to throw you out. Yes, we have a dress code. (No left over spaghetti on your tie and no cow dung on your Big Ben's) And, everybody is expected to practice genuine Kentucky hospitality which I have a great feeling is the same hospitality I would receive should I ever get the chance to sit in a Texas Lodge.

 

[Sirius]

coming from a guy who showed up for his FC in shorts

I remember that. That was funny. But they were very nice shorts.

 

[LRG]

My Brothers All, the lodge that I am a member of is located on Main Street, across from the Perry County Courthouse in Hazard, Kentucky. (You cain't git more Hillbilly than that)
You are welcome to visit my lodge anytime you feel like it. Now, I haven't ever seen a tuxedo worn in my lodge since I became a member some 31 years ago, but if you want to be the first I will guarantee will be the highlight of the evening and nobody will attempt to throw you out. Yes, we have a dress code. (No left over spaghetti on your tie and no cow dung on your Big Ben's) And, everybody is expected to practice genuine Kentucky hospitality which I have a great feeling is the same hospitality I would receive should I ever get the chance to sit in a Texas Lodge.

Thank You for that.
You are correct, you would be greated and treated with large hospitality.

Some individuals would wear shorts just to despite and those types are just better off ignored.:beer:

Oh and thanks anyway Bro. Shelton

 

[Bill Lins]

So Bro Bill this would be the question and the $1,000,000 answer. Could, due to the WM charge, not allow this "Brother" to sit into Lodge if upon investigation he was doing that simply to cause a scene?

As I read the WM charge- it regulates the WM's conduct, not that of any other Brother. In addition, the wording of Art. 383 is clear- the WM may exclude the Brother ONLY if he KNOWS the Brother is laboring under charges. There simply is no "wiggle room" here.

I mean if you forsee an issue can you not be proactive instead of reactive?

Would you care to be subject to arrest for murder just because you "wished" someone dead? I think not. I believe you MUST give the Brother the opportunity to behave. If he fails to do so, then you act- not beforehand.

As always, YMMV.