mainstream or Prince Hall

Discussion in 'Frequently Asked Questions' started by hev1030, Mar 30, 2014.

  1. dfreybur

    dfreybur Premium Member

    3,935
    2,394
    133
    There are national GLs in a number of countries that are large enough to have regional GLs that overlap those national GLs. Thus there is precedent. It's about decision not about need. Brothers in the US decided not to have a national umbrella GL - It is claimed that this decision was lead by W Bro George Washington.
     
  2. widows son

    widows son Premium Member

    1,828
    18
    38
    Actually bro. Maloney, before Canadian confederation, the territory that is now Southern Ontario and Southern Quebec ( upper/lower Canada) was Canada, and the Grand Lodge was known as the Grand Lodge of Canada. Today we are the Grand Lodge of Canada, in the province of Ontario, retaining that older tradition of being the first grand lodge in Canada. But you are correct in saying that today, there isn't a national Canadian grand lodge.


    Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App
     
  3. BroBook

    BroBook Premium Member

    590
    236
    63
    I might be wrong but in my city "I" have been given the impression that "mainstream" masonry does not Accept those who look as if they should be Prince Hall, now I have seen Caucasians in Prince Hall lodges!!!


    Bro Book
     
  4. Bill Lins

    Bill Lins Moderating Staff Staff Member

    4,373
    1,188
    183
    If such is the case, then they are not truly "Masons".
     
  5. MRichard

    MRichard Mark A. Ri'chard Premium Member

    846
    616
    113
    I was just initiated into a "mainstream" lodge. Race wasn't an issue there. Although I am not naive enough to think, that is not an issue at other lodges. Hopefully, that changes sooner rather than later.
     
  6. Mike Martin

    Mike Martin Eternal Apprentice Premium Member

    675
    420
    83
    Once again and just to ensure accuracy, the first Grand Lodge of Canada formed in 1855, was originally the Provincial Grand Lodge of Upper Canada formed by the Premier Grand Lodge of England in 1792.

    From your own website: http://www.grandlodge.on.ca/home/our-organization/history-of-grand-lodge-of-canada.html
     
  7. widows son

    widows son Premium Member

    1,828
    18
    38
    Yes but, once it was no longer a Prov. GL, it was the GL of Canada, being upper and lower Canada. It then changed its name to include Ontario after confederation, but kept the name Canada, as for a time Canada was just upper, and lower Canada.


    Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App
     
  8. Rifleman1776

    Rifleman1776 Registered User

    266
    183
    43
    The "look like" part is a blemish on the history of Masonry in America. It is a very confusing situation, at best. Ugly at worst. Many lodges do blackball a candidate based on one negative vote only. Others, as I am told second hand, have other rules. Therefore, a single person to black ball a candidate can give all of Masonry the image of being racist. I understand why America does not have a single Grand Lodge. But I feel that was a mistake made by Bro. Washingto and others of the time. There are many stories and rumors floating around regarding Prince Hall Masonry. One story that has come my way is that several easterns states have approved communication with PH lodges in their states. That would be commendable, but I have also been told that an MM from another state, just by sitting in ANY lodge in those states are subject to expulsion for having attended a clandestine lodge. Without a single central
    authoratative body there really is no way to verify or disprove these rumors. What we advocate Brothers do, almost more than anything else, 'communicate' we do not do interstate. And, in my state, even intrastate.
     
  9. dfreybur

    dfreybur Premium Member

    3,935
    2,394
    133
    All of this is trivial to look up. There is no mystery to it whatsoever. No rumors just look it up and act accordingly.

    http://bessel.org/masrec/phamap.htm

    Members in the blue states traveling in other blue states can look up the details of their own state and the state they are visiting and know if they can visit. Easy peasy. Members in white states don't need to look anything up, just no visiting. Equally easy peasy.
     
  10. Rifleman1776

    Rifleman1776 Registered User

    266
    183
    43
    That is as scary as it is interesting. Since the kerfluffle started in Arkansas, many members have begun visiting surroundings states to attend lodge. Where I live we go to Missouri. Many along the west border go to Oklahoma and in the far SW corner they attend Texas lodges. I, and about a dozen others from my area have joined Missouri lodges.
    Which brings up a, not so hypothetical, question. If an MM from Arkansas visits a lodge in a blue state, what happens?
    In my very first post on this subject I used the word "sad". I feel very sad seeing that Freemasonry may not be what it claims to be. We need a central U.S. authority to settle things. I'll suggest it be called Grand National Lodge or GNL.
     
  11. MRichard

    MRichard Mark A. Ri'chard Premium Member

    846
    616
    113
    Do you mean a Prince Hall lodge in another state? The map illustrates the states that recognize Prince Hall.
     
  12. Rifleman1776

    Rifleman1776 Registered User

    266
    183
    43
    Bro. I mean any lodge. Because the rumors say a state that recognizes PH makes every lodge clandestine. Doesn't make sense to me either.
     
  13. MRichard

    MRichard Mark A. Ri'chard Premium Member

    846
    616
    113
    That is not true. There are about 42 states that recognize PH which is recognized by UGLE. This is probably a rumor started by those in the states that don't recognize PH. Now if your state doesn't recognize PH, then you couldn't visit a PH lodge. I am just an EA but that just doesn't make sense. Texas recognizes PH but there is no visitation. Not sure if there are any other states that do that.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2014
  14. Rifleman1776

    Rifleman1776 Registered User

    266
    183
    43
    Thanks for your reply. Again, without a central authority, we don't have a way to check rumors. People say a lot of things, how does one know true from fantasy? I've been an MM for over 30 years and usually dismiss most conversation about 'right/wrong', 'this way/that way', etc. with a polite smile then forget what they said. Good luck on your journey.
     
  15. MRichard

    MRichard Mark A. Ri'chard Premium Member

    846
    616
    113
    Thank you! Hopefully someone with more experience than me could better explain this.
     
  16. Furtherlight

    Furtherlight Registered User

    4
    0
    1
    Depends on your reason for joining. I investigated both types of lodges. I was told that there was little difference and that even if I joined PHA that I could still visit other lodges. I eventually chose PHA and am glad I did so.


    Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App
     
  17. dfreybur

    dfreybur Premium Member

    3,935
    2,394
    133
    Nothing hypothetical about that. Visits of that sort happen all of the time.

    As Arkansas does not recognize PHA in Arkansas they don't recognize PHA anywhere. This means the lodge he is visiting is a "George Washington Affiliation" lodge for like of an official term (I refuse to use the word mainstream as both branches are mainstream and always have been).

    If no PHA brothers are visiting, no issue.

    If yes PHA brothers are visiting then it depends on the Arkansas rules. I know the rules in my three jurisdiction therefore I expect Arkansas members to know there own rules. There are "act like the locals" rules and there are "act like you are at home" rules. If the Arkansas rule is to act like the locals, stay in the meeting. If the Arkansas rule is to act like you are home, leave the meeting (and then go through the line in an Arkansas line so you can submit legislation to change the rule to prevent future repeats of this embarrassment).

    By the way this happened at the GL level in Alabama several years ago. The GM of Alabama visited the GL meeting in Arizona. Of course the PHA GM of Arizona also visited as cross attendance is standard in states with recognition. The GM of Alabama had to leave. The Internet went wild laughing at Alabama that year and their rules roundly desired that laughter. So they voted in a change to "act like the locals". Two years later I was at an Illinois GL meeting. Of course the entire PHA grand line was in attendance as usual. The GM of Alabama was the invited keynote speaker. He visited and spoke no problem as his rules had been recently changed. Some of us who applauded him applauded knowing their rules change. Some at the meeting just applauded because every Mason applauds every GM for everything.

    It's all simple and a matter of looking up your rules. And of getting active changing hose rules if they are not what you think is right.
     
  18. BroBook

    BroBook Premium Member

    590
    236
    63
    Good stuff my brother


    Bro Book
     
  19. Rifleman1776

    Rifleman1776 Registered User

    266
    183
    43
    It is all still confusing. My lodge is in Missouri, I live in Arkansas. Our obligation requires us to submit to the rules of the state we happen to be in at any moment. And, therein lies the root of much confusion and disagreement.
     
  20. dfreybur

    dfreybur Premium Member

    3,935
    2,394
    133
    The wording in the obligation is different in every jurisdiction. So far I've learned two and am in the process of learning a third. Sure enough that part of the obligation is slightly different in each version. The ones I have learned all say to obey the rules of the jurisdiction I am a member of so they handle the case of transferring my membership. As I am now a member in 3 jurisdictions I see a few extra restrictions compared to a member of only 1 jurisdiction.

    The wording includes the word "or" in a way that might be ambiguous. Ask yourself if it means to obey the rules of your mother jurisdiction "and" your current jurisdiction. Ask yourself if it means to obey the rules of your mother jurisdiction "or" your current jurisdiction.

    Then also look up if your current jurisdiction has an "act like the locals" or an "act like you are at home" rule for visits.
     

Share My Freemasonry