The big pink elephant in the room...

[dew_time]

My dad used to say when he was in the navy they told them to paint everything that doesn't move gray. I guess it holds true 35 years later, lol.

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[dfreybur]

I thought everything in the navy was painted gray..

Yeah, but we were supposed to *call* it blue. My "service dress blues" were made from black cloth, same reason. Have you seen the beige camo uniforms the green service folks are wearing this decade? Don't they call them green for the same reason?

 

[inked_biker]

Well as a White male being raised PHA in Baumholder Germany and then dimiting to a Main Stream Jurisdiction in Washington State I have what you may call been on both sides of the fence. I never experienced anything negative in either Jurisdiction.

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[stuntman98]

Thats because WA is awesome

PM Pride of Walton #110
MWPHGLWa
SW Sons of Light #77
MWPHGLWa
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[inked_biker]

PM Cornerstone Military Lodge 135 PHA OK
Past High Priest
Past Illustrious Master
Past EC
Past Venerable Master
Chairman Under 40 General Grand Chapter

At York Rite Grand Session in Everett this weekend.


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[PHAMasonDon]

I for one am all for it. I was raised June 2nd 2012 and am a proud Prince Hall and Caucasian brother!! I was the first Caucasian of the logde in it's 70 year existence and we see No difference in one another...
We all travel to the East my brother!!

PHAMasonDon

 

[BryanMaloney]

Remember the 13th amendment is just that it's an amendment not a law.

Amendments are laws. Indeed, if you mean the 13th Amendment to the US Constitution, it supercedes all other law in the USA. However, the 13th Amendment makes no guarantees of treatment, it merely outlaws slavery in the USA. It says nothing about racism. It merely eliminates a specific legal status.

Historically blacks have been largely written out of world history including freemasonry.

Historically, "blackness" didn't matter until relatively recently. For example, to the Romans, there were only two races: "Roman" and "Barbarian", and a barbarian's child could be 100% Roman, since what defined "Race" for the Roman Empire was education and conduct, not ancestry. "Whiteness" is also not what it once was. The Irish, for example, were not considered to actually be "white" until the 19th century.

 

[dew_time]

Bryan is correct in his history. We all must remember that race, creed, origin or geographical location does not make a person who they are as much as their conduct does. At least.. that's my opion, but everyone has one.

 

[Bro. Vincent]

Amendments are laws. Indeed, if you mean the 13th Amendment to the US Constitution, it supercedes all other law in the USA. However, the 13th Amendment makes no guarantees of treatment, it merely outlaws slavery in the USA. It says nothing about racism. It merely eliminates a specific legal status.



Historically, "blackness" didn't matter until relatively recently. For example, to the Romans, there were only two races: "Roman" and "Barbarian", and a barbarian's child could be 100% Roman, since what defined "Race" for the Roman Empire was education and conduct, not ancestry. "Whiteness" is also not what it once was. The Irish, for example, were not considered to actually be "white" until the 19th century.

Amendments are not laws they are an "amendment" or change to a current legal document or change to a given written law. Or addition.

And you are also incorrect on blackness not mattering until recently. Ancient Africans were well aware of there skin pigment and understood the science of melanin and its properties as well as the Pineal gland 10s of thousands of years ago. What is relatively recent is racism and slavery as an "institution".

I have many issues with the history of the Romans and Greeks. I also have issues of how that history is told...

My teachings lead me to say the Barbers are what we call the African moor. See Tawny moor.

l do agree about the Irish. See the black celts of Ireland.


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[Bro. Vincent]

Bryan is correct in his history. We all must remember that race, creed, origin or geographical location does not make a person who they are as much as their conduct does. At least.. that's my opion, but everyone has one.

He correct in "some "of history... But I agree with everything else you've said..


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[dew_time]

He correct in "some "of history... But I agree with everything else you've said..


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Thanks I'm not a big fan of racially related history. We've all come a long way since those days. I believe your right in that we need to work harder to mend some fences. Not only in this aspect but as a nation in general.

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[Bro. Vincent]

Yeah I thought I would DM Bro. Maloney instead of continuing that thread here... He is a knowledgable person but some information must be challenged at times but at the right time and place.

I come here for support and brotherly love... It's been great since I've come here.


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[dew_time]

I come here for support and brotherly love... It's been great since I've come here.


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I might not be a brother yet but you have my respect and support... and that was before you posted this thread.

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[Bro. Vincent]

I might not be a brother yet but you have my respect and support... and that was before you posted this thread.

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Why thank you my friend. And you have mine as well...


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[BryanMaloney]

Amendments are not laws they are an "amendment" or change to a current legal document or change to a given written law. Or addition.

And they have complete force of law, thus rendering them laws.

As for the rest of what you claim--it can't be backed up outside of conspiracy theorist literature, unfortunately.

 

[Bro. Vincent]

An Amendment again is not a law it is a change or addition to a law and is open for debate of it's interpretation in a court of law. But I will move on from that topic and leave you on square with this...The rest of what I said is not conspiracy. I may be a newly made master mason, but when it comes to history (more particularly African history) that has been and will be my life's work. The problem for most folks is when I get into these subjects they do not realize they only have studied what appeals to them, instead of getting sources of information from the most unlikeliest of places and playing the devil's advocate and using common sense to find a conclusion to historical events.

Because IMO the only way to be 100 percent accurate is to have been there and experienced it. But sometimes when the information doesn't have the desired result they were looking for or they refuse to accept the truth, they simply discount the information or where the information came from...In America we are forced to study western civilization no matter what color, race, creed or ethnic background, but when you go beyond that and start studying more than what happened before the Roman and Greek empires, things really start dramatically change when we look at the high cultures that came out of Africa.

Bro. Maloney I DM'd you with a message of my thoughts. I think at this point in this thread, we have beat a dead horse. You are a very knowledgeable light seeker and for that I have the utmost respect for you...Remember, history is typically written by those who have conquered the lands they write about...which means a great deal of the historical information from a world's view perspective, we get is probably distorted and yet we sometimes accept it all as historical fact.

 

[dew_time]

Looking back at my days in school while studying american history, I don't recall race being mentioned in conjunction with the birth of american. Though i do recall that this country was built on the backs of slaves. Slavery isn't just a black and white thing... it still exist and many races historically have been and may still be subjected to it.

There.. I kicked the horse one last time.

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[dfreybur]

In America we are forced to study western civilization no matter what color, race, creed or ethnic background

The United States is a part of the Anglo-Germanic branch of western civilization with plenty of influence from the Franco-Latin and Helenic branches of western civilization. It is natural that our schools should teach western civilization with a local focus and thus they tech US history and then European history back to the Roman and Greek eras. We only learn of the Parthians and Persians from the wars they fought with the Romans and Greeks. We only learn of Egypt from the deep influence they had on the Romans and Greeks and through their occupations by the Romans and Greeks. Color and race have been problematic in the Americas but did not matter in other parts of western civilization. (You will want to point out the diversity of people was lower but that's because of historical difficulty of travel, but consider Julius, Anthony and Cleopatra). While creed has in the past been a part of western civilization as Christianity wiped out previous religions it no longer is now that we have freedom of religion and separation of church and state. Ethnic background is simple - We are ethnic Americans, ethnic Anglo-Germanic westerners, ethic westerners, ethnic old worlders, ethnic Earthers. This is a matter of culture not race and that's the cultural tree we come from. here. Ethnic cleansing in the Slavic region made it clear that "ethnic" is a matter of cultural choice not of race. (As I currently reside in Texas and we have a NASCAR track in Austin I'll point out race is very much cultural. We do rodeo barrel racing and NASCAR).

[/QUOTE]but when you go beyond that and start studying more than what happened before the Roman and Greek empires, things really start dramatically change when we look at the high cultures that came out of Africa.[/QUOTE]

I got a tiny spattering of Egyptian history in high school and even less about African civilizations farther south. You've discussed the Moors - I had to learn of the Caliphate on my own for any topic other than algebra. I only learned Armenian history because I lived in Pasadena for years and I was able to tap into Roman and Parthian history with Armenia being a buffer zone between those warring world powers. To learn anything about civilizations further east I had to do so on my own.

So I see local centrism where you see bias and suppression. The difference between the two is smaller than one might think. It's like that famous cover of New Yorker magazine that showed the distance between NYC and Jersey City, the distance between Jersey City and Los Angeles, the distance between Los Angeles and Tokyo as the same distances.

 

[Bro. Vincent]

The United States is a part of the Anglo-Germanic branch of western civilization with plenty of influence from the Franco-Latin and Helenic branches of western civilization. It is natural that our schools should teach western civilization with a local focus and thus they tech US history and then European history back to the Roman and Greek eras. We only learn of the Parthians and Persians from the wars they fought with the Romans and Greeks. We only learn of Egypt from the deep influence they had on the Romans and Greeks and through their occupations by the Romans and Greeks. Color and race have been problematic in the Americas but did not matter in other parts of western civilization. (You will want to point out the diversity of people was lower but that's because of historical difficulty of travel, but consider Julius, Anthony and Cleopatra). While creed has in the past been a part of western civilization as Christianity wiped out previous religions it no longer is now that we have freedom of religion and separation of church and state. Ethnic background is simple - We are ethnic Americans, ethnic Anglo-Germanic westerners, ethic westerners, ethnic old worlders, ethnic Earthers. This is a matter of culture not race and that's the cultural tree we come from. here. Ethnic cleansing in the Slavic region made it clear that "ethnic" is a matter of cultural choice not of race. (As I currently reside in Texas and we have a NASCAR track in Austin I'll point out race is very much cultural. We do rodeo barrel racing and NASCAR).

but when you go beyond that and start studying more than what happened before the Roman and Greek empires, things really start dramatically change when we look at the high cultures that came out of Africa.[/QUOTE]

I got a tiny spattering of Egyptian history in high school and even less about African civilizations farther south. You've discussed the Moors - I had to learn of the Caliphate on my own for any topic other than algebra. I only learned Armenian history because I lived in Pasadena for years and I was able to tap into Roman and Parthian history with Armenia being a buffer zone between those warring world powers. To learn anything about civilizations further east I had to do so on my own.

So I see local centrism where you see bias and suppression. The difference between the two is smaller than one might think. It's like that famous cover of New Yorker magazine that showed the distance between NYC and Jersey City, the distance between Jersey City and Los Angeles, the distance between Los Angeles and Tokyo as the same distances.[/QUOTE]

That is an interesting way to look at things. I agree with most of what you've stated... And I love the fact that you made a point to say alot of what you've learned you've learned on your own.

Side Bar: Humanity has to start with everyone accepting everyone else's cultural identities and respecting them... But that is not the case. Although I live in and love this country I still want the 40 million black folk in this country to know who they were before Africa was colonized... Not only that all Americans should know this history because of how this country was founded and built.

Also it's important to note how it also influenced American freemasonry. Prince Hall new exactly what he was doing when he named his first lodge "African "Lodge.

I do not look to bring up these topics everyday all day. But we as Americans, all Americans at some point should understand the real history of the world so that travesties like the African slave trade, the mass murder of Jews, the Slavic wars never ever happen again.

And because we mason can have a wonderful and intelligent dialogue lets me know we all headed in the right direction.

By the way, the dead horse was supposed to have been beaten on this topic lol.


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[Bro_Vick]

Race is the wrong term, it is far more about cultural issues that divide us than racial, at least from my limited experiences.

S&F,
-Bro Vick