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what do we know about the Illuminati?

tldubb

Premium Member
Just one source? Usually for something to be consider fact or factual you usually have multitude of sources not just one. Being able to stand up to the veracity of the authors claim.


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chrmc

Registered User

chrmc

Registered User
Still leave the Kool-Aid alone, let's get this straight nothing on this thread has anything to do with talking " Masonic " talk. When you try to come up with this connection between Illuminati and Freemasonry. As Brother Jdmads, has asked cite your source and not this same old Adam Weishaumpt...story. Big Oh yaaah!


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Why would it be so terrible if Weishaupt was a Mason? I don't get that? Most of the various seekers at that time dabbled in various societies and paths of illumination.

Again, there's a difference in the historical order and the nonsense we see today.
 

Bloke

Premium Member
Best source is again the book I reference. They have info to all the original sources in German.
However also check https://bavarianilluminati.wordpress.com/ which is one of the authors blogs. Especially https://bavarianilluminati.wordpress.com/2014/07/12/scottish-knight-degree-excerpt/ and https://bavarianilluminati.wordpress.com/2013/12/21/progression-of-the-illuminati-ritual/

Brother Wages was also on the Winding stairs podcast and a couple of others.

Thanks for the recommendation and comments. If a good book as you say, I might look into it.

So, this is sort of like the OTO or Golden Dawn being linked to Freemasonry by vitue of early movers of those organisations being Freemasons and like other organisations who borrow from Freemasonry ?
 
R

Ressam

Guest
Yes, Weishaupt was a Mason. He recruited many men from Bavarian lodges for the Illuminati. But Freemasonry did not sanction it.

The rituals of the Illuminati are now available if you're interested: http://www.lewismasonic.co.uk/the-s...ic-rituals-and-doctrine-of-the-illuminati.htm
Hello, Sir.
If possible, could You, please tell more about this moment -- "But Freemasonry didn't sanction it"?
Who? Grand Master? What Lodge? How was that "process" going? Just interested in that historic moment.
Thanks!
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
How is it that it makes the leap to the Craft as a whole?

The founders of the Illuminati were Brothers. Most of the members were Brothers. Denying this history is a bad idea.

The Illuminati were ejected from Masonry for participating in politics. Membership was banned by civic law. The organization has gone the way of the dodo bird.

People who start discussions of the Illuminati are conspiracy theory nut cases. It's a useful litmus test for who is not of sound mind. But once the topic is brought up the actual history is the actual history. That they don't exist now and have not existed for over a century does not mean they never existed. This too is a litmus test for being of sound mind. Making the leap to the Craft as a whole OR denying that they ever existed are both irrational stances.

That's Brother Chris from Helotes Lodge near San Antonio, right? I have sat in tiled lodge with him.
 

SimonM

Registered User
So, this is sort of like the OTO or Golden Dawn being linked to Freemasonry by vitue of early movers of those organisations being Freemasons and like other organisations who borrow from Freemasonry ?

Not quite, the founders of OTO and GD were first freemasons and then created the new orders which can be seen as irregular high degrees or rites. Separate from the family of freemasonry, but still very closely related.

The Bavarian Illuminati had its origin in the student fraternaties of the German universities. Wieshaupt was later initiated into freemasonry and borrowed lots of material from the craft degrees to his order but it was always a separate thing, unrelated to the masonic family.


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Bloke

Premium Member
Not quite, the founders of OTO and GD were first freemasons and then created the new orders which can be seen as irregular high degrees or rites. Separate from the family of freemasonry, but still very closely related.

The Bavarian Illuminati had its origin in the student fraternaties of the German universities. Wieshaupt was later initiated into freemasonry and borrowed lots of material from the craft degrees to his order but it was always a separate thing, unrelated to the masonic family.


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Thanks.
 

Pdwmcdonald

Registered User
This has been a very interesting discussion, although some Brother's comments less brotherly than others.

I think people need to understand early Freemasonry from a European perspective and not from an American one. In the 18th and 19th century, fraternal organizations and occult societies were popping up all over continental Europe. The easiest way for these organizations to try and sound legitimate were to attach themselves to Freemasony as it was, at the time well known and respected (except by the Catholic Church). A lot of the members of these organizations became Freemasons to try and steal Freemasonry's secrets, rituals and to try and recruit membership. One of these organizations was the short lived Bavarian Illuminati. Whose founder and members were eventually expelled by the Grand Lodge of Bavaria. Another example was the Antient Order of Gardeners who existed for a short time in Scotland in the 19th Century. Yes, their working tools were in fact, gardening tools!

Now roll it all forward to the 21st century, every yo-yo with a computer can throw up websites and YouTube videos about the illuminati and its connections to Freemasonry. All the tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorists lap it up as fact. The worst offender of this is a website called Freemasonry watch which also has a Facebook page.

Good, bad, and often misrepresented Freemasonry has one of the most unique and fascinating histories of any organization in the history of the world. I for one, am proud to be a part of it. Thanks for the tip I'll add this book to my collection.

In case anybody wants to know. I'm a third generation Freemason and my oldest son just went through his EA Degree.
 

Bloke

Premium Member
... Another example was the Antient Order of Gardeners who existed for a short time in Scotland in the 19th Century. Yes, their working tools were in fact, gardening tools!...
...

The ancient order of Gardeners is hanging on in Melbourne with a handful of members. A young and influential Freemason here joined and will soon lead them. He's inviting Freemasons to join and some are - they hold the oldest Free Gardiner Warrant in the world which is still active.

"The Victorian Lodge No. 1 remains the only Fraternal Free Gardeners Lodge in Australia and the Southern Hemisphere. 2014 marks a milestone in the Orders history in celebrating 150 years of the Grand United Order of Free Gardeners in Australia."

http://www.guofg.net.au/

I loaned them an old Constitution which they have just used to re-write theirs which was lost.

They have a facebook page here.
 

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
This has been a very interesting discussion, although some Brother's comments less brotherly than others.

I think people need to understand early Freemasonry from a European perspective and not from an American one. In the 18th and 19th century, fraternal organizations and occult societies were popping up all over continental Europe. The easiest way for these organizations to try and sound legitimate were to attach themselves to Freemasony as it was, at the time well known and respected (except by the Catholic Church). A lot of the members of these organizations became Freemasons to try and steal Freemasonry's secrets, rituals and to try and recruit membership. One of these organizations was the short lived Bavarian Illuminati. Whose founder and members were eventually expelled by the Grand Lodge of Bavaria. Another example was the Antient Order of Gardeners who existed for a short time in Scotland in the 19th Century. Yes, their working tools were in fact, gardening tools!

Now roll it all forward to the 21st century, every yo-yo with a computer can throw up websites and YouTube videos about the illuminati and its connections to Freemasonry. All the tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorists lap it up as fact. The worst offender of this is a website called Freemasonry watch which also has a Facebook page.

Good, bad, and often misrepresented Freemasonry has one of the most unique and fascinating histories of any organization in the history of the world. I for one, am proud to be a part of it. Thanks for the tip I'll add this book to my collection.

In case anybody wants to know. I'm a third generation Freemason and my oldest son just went through his EA Degree.
Free Gardeners are again active in Scotland: Countess of Elgin Lodge in Kelty. A lodge was also started in the US
 
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