What is 'clandestine'?

[dfreybur]

It is hard to understand why you assign blame to the Shrine.

You appear unaware of decades of clashes between the Imperial level of the Shrine and very many states. Nearly every one of the 21 years I've been a Mason one state or another clashed with the Shrine in one way or another. The one year old example in Arkansas and the two year old example in South Carolina are only the latest two in a list that was already long two decades ago.

Shrine cannot become "irregular" as they never were an appendant body like York or Scottish rites.

Of course this has always been at the core of the clashes. Various individual Shrines, state Shrine groups and/or Imperial Shrine asserts some sort of independence and the state in question's GM or GL asserts authority. The Arkansas situation is one among many. You see your local situation as if it were unique and not part of a long established trend but it is indeed a part of a long established trend.

They are "pushing" nothing.

Then why are NPD brothers allowed to retain their Shrine membership in South Carolina? My brother you are faced with a tree and you're not aware that it's in a forest.

The situation in Arkansas is nothing short of bizzare.

A disgrace even. But unfortunately not unexpected given the history in other states and other years.

And, honestly, the spirit of brothership was/is far stronger in Shrine than in Arkansas Masonry.

That's a part of the cause and effect here. Out of control brothers in the grand line are a reflection of other forces active there for a number of years. There isn't just a historical pattern of the Shrine clashing with assorted states. There's a history in Arkansas or declining morale. What you are experiencing is a collision of two unfortunate trends, not one isolated set of events.

 

[Brother_Steve]

When it comes to alcohol the Grand Lodges need to start treating it's members like man, no where ever did it stat in the old charges that a man can not have alcohol.

I wonder, did they change the wages of a MM to be Corn, Odouls and oil?

 

[bjdeverell]

I think the main issue arises from what is to be done when a newly initiated Shriner (non MM) travels to another State and expects to be accepted in a traditional Shrine. It wouldn't work and would only cause problems. As far as the Grand Lodge is concerned we have to look at it in another way, and not just the GM trying to throw around power. Masonry (Regular) has endured in the U.S. in a relatively stable manner for a little over 200 years because we stayed on top of things and kept each other in check. Splinter groups and once fully accepted Rites (Memphis-Misraim for example) were cast off for doing things that were clearly leaning away from our traditions. The Brothers saw the writing on the wall as to where the groups were heading and got rid of them before it became a full blown issue (like this.) This kind of scrutiny can easily be misused and with that we are all in agreement. But look at what has happened to all of the other once Great Fraternities like the Woodman who have turned into nothing more than insurance companies, reverted back to trade unions, or ceased to exist altogether. We don't want to see that happen to Masonry and the belief that we're immune from it would be a clear reflection of willful ignorance. Membership ledgers would be good proof of my point. Too many Brothers are making the mistake of letting their emotions get involved because they take these things as a personal slight against them or their particular clique. What's best for the Fraternity is where we need to focus our attention. Would a Shriner, whom has never received the Third Degree, visiting another Jurisdiction, cause the loss of Peace and Harmony among the assembled Masonic Brethren? Yes, therefore it is not conducive with Masonic tenet. So in that sense the Grand Lodge of Arkansas is engaging in it's sworn Duty to protect the Craft. My opinion, for what it's worth.

 

[Glen Cook]

Here in England we don't have the Shrine and Appendant bodies are kept at arms length from Freemasonry so we are not likely to have a situation as occurred in your State. However, having read the detailed information supplied on the summation linked below the Grand Lodge acted fairly and within its power to disassociate itself from the Shrine. It is worth highlighting that it did NOT require any Master Masons to resign from the Shrine.

http://web.mit.edu/dryfoo/Masonry/Reports/arkansas-shrine.html

Belated correction: we do have the Shrine in England. I came down and helped with a ceremonial at the Russell Hotel.
The summation is not entirely accurate. I was on the Committee which heard the appeal of the Shriner.

 

[Mike Martin]

Belated correction: we do have the Shrine in England. I came down and helped with a ceremonial at the Russell Hotel.
The summation is not entirely accurate. I was on the Committee which heard the appeal of the Shriner.

Hi Glen, that is not really a "correction" is it?

A few english Masons started a Shrine Club and did want to start a European "Temple", however, as far as I know the Temple fell through and the Club has become inactive.

 

[Glen Cook]

Hi Glen, that is not really a "correction" is it?

A few english Masons started a Shrine Club and did want to start a European "Temple", however, as far as I know the Temple fell through and the Club has become inactive.

A Temple was chartered for Europe. We carved out England from the jurisdiction. See http://emiratshriners.org. The UK Shrine Club is still extant with clubs at Lakenheath/Mildenhall (Anglia), London and Dartford. You can find them at aahmes.org clubs, United Kingdom.

 

[Mike Martin]

OK I sit corrected there are three Shrine Clubs that doesn't really support the idea of "the Shrine" being in England.

It also does not correct my original statement that over here Appendant Bodies are kept at arms length from Freemasonry, hence why they can not cause the problems as illustrated over there in the US.

 

[BryanMaloney]

OK I sit corrected there are three Shrine Clubs that doesn't really support the idea of "the Shrine" being in England.

It also does not correct my original statement that over here Appendant Bodies are kept at arms length from Freemasonry, hence why they can not cause the problems as illustrated over there in the US.

So what in the UK damped the obsession with "higher degrees" in the 19th century that gave rise to the various appendant bodies such as Shrine? Or is Rampant Appendancy pretty much an American phenomenon with little expression outside the USA?

 

[Glen Cook]

Well, based on the folks sitting in the East at PGL, English Freemasonry has a surfeit of side orders as well, many of the of recent origin or increased activity: Rosicrucian, Operatives, Athelstan, Acon, cryptic/Royal and Select, KT, HRAKTP, CBCS/Rectified Rite, OSM, AMD, Knight Masons, AAR...I hesitate to put Mark and Chapter in the same category.

 

[Mike Martin]

It is not dampened as such, there are plenty of Appendant Orders here but they just haven't grown the same intertwined relationship with the Craft as they have in the US and some European countries.

For example it seems that in America many Freemasons think that the Scottish Rite is as old as the Craft with people not realising that it was invented in France in the late 1700s before being exported out to yourselves in the US and then back to Britain. In a similar vein is your "York Rite" which many don't realise is an American invention based on the working of the second York Grand Lodge (1760-1790). While we have many of the Degrees it includes they are not part of a "system".

I have come across many US brethren who do actually believe that these degrees are part and parcel of the orginal Craft from the 1600s, despite the fact that there were ONLY 2 degrees worked at that time.

 

[dfreybur]

So what in the UK damped the obsession with "higher degrees" in the 19th century that gave rise to the various appendant bodies such as Shrine? Or is Rampant Appendancy pretty much an American phenomenon with little expression outside the USA?

I think it's the US move away from table lodge and festive board a bit over a century ago. Maybe done because the large number of candidates made it necessary to perform vastly more degrees. Maybe part of the rationing system for WWI. The move made blue lodge more solemn and less balanced so it opened a market for festive groups.

 

[admarcus1]

I think it's the US move away from table lodge and festive board a bit over a century ago. Maybe done because the large number of candidates made it necessary to perform vastly more degrees. Maybe part of the rationing system for WWI. The move made blue lodge more solemn and less balanced so it opened a market for festive groups.

I was thinking that the move away from these things a result of the temperance movement. While alcohol continued to be consumed in private even after prohibition was in place, the temperance movement certainly attached a very strong stigma to any consumption of alcohol. I would imagine that many Brothers at the time may have agreed with the stance that the consumption of alcohol was wrong, and that many who didn't would still be concerned about bringing disrepute on the Craft. To hold a table lodge or festive board, even if alcohol wasn't served, might have created the appearance of impropriety. In an organization as tradition bound as Freemasonry, once a practice is in place, it can be hard to change. New Masons coming in once a rule is in place may assume that the rule has always been there.

I am please to say that the Table Lodge is alive and well in Massachusetts. It is one of the most anticipated events of the year. Two or more lodges may do it together, with volunteer servers from another lodge (with the favor returned). The event is taken seriously and is conducted with decorum, but is also a lot of fun.

 

[BryanMaloney]

In an organization as tradition bound as Freemasonry, once a practice is in place, it can be hard to change. New Masons coming in once a rule is in place may assume that the rule has always been there.

Traditionalist progressivism. "Our changes are the best changes and should never be changed."

 

[admarcus1]

Traditionalist progressivism. "Our changes are the best changes and should never be changed."

That is great. It could apply just as well to my Synagogue and my workplace, let alone family gatherings and traditions. Is that a quote, or did you come up with it?

 

[BryanMaloney]

I just came up with it. I do that sort of thing all the time. When one has to make a living writing about neuroscience in a way that keeps people from falling asleep, one learns "pithy".

 

[BroBook]

I just came up with it. I do that sort of thing all the time. When one has to make a living writing about neuroscience in a way that keeps people from falling asleep, one learns "pithy".

What is that word, sir!!!


Bro Book
M.W.U.G.L. Of Fl: P.H.A.
Excelsior # 43
At pensacola

 

[Warrior1256]

Man, I didn't realize that things could get so complicated when it came to appendant bodies. I really would like to join the York Rite but I do not want to do anything to place my Blue Lodge membership in danger. Are these type of disagreements common?

 

[Brother JC]

No, they aren't. And I've never heard of any issue with any York Rite body in the US. By all means, pursue it, at least the Royal Arch. I recommend it to all Masons.

 

[Warrior1256]

No, they aren't. And I've never heard of any issue with any York Rite body in the US. By all means, pursue it, at least the Royal Arch. I recommend it to all Masons.

Thank you brother. Your comments are a sigh of relief. I really do want to join the York Rite. However, some brothers at lodge have told me that I should wait a minimum of 6 months after being raised to MM before joining the York Rite.

 

[dfreybur]

Man, I didn't realize that things could get so complicated when it came to appendant bodies. I really would like to join the York Rite but I do not want to do anything to place my Blue Lodge membership in danger. Are these type of disagreements common?

With orders under a couple of decades old they are common. Consider that Texas forbids membership in the most popular motorcycle riding and charity fundraising order but allows the second most popular one.

For older orders it's pretty much the sole domain of the Imperial Shrine to butt heads with GL level in state after state.

One of my lodges has a long line of members who ended up Potentate from an era where the lodge was extremely active well past the historical peak. In an era where a brother joining almost any lodge could step into the line just by showing up at every meeting, that particular lodge had a waiting list for chairs. Some got disgruntled and joined the line in the local Shrine instead. Given that history I figure the attitude ended up concentrated among brothers that went into the Imperial line in the Shrine after being Past Potentate at their local Shrine. They are the guys who could have ended up GM but who weren't installed into chairs so they got derailed early on.

The word ambition comes to mind but I figure it takes ambition to move on to the state grand line just as it does to move on to the shrine grand line. And so we have Imperial Potentates butting heads with Grand Masters. That this does not happen in other organizations I think has to do with their state organizations.