Why not visitation?

Discussion in 'Building Fraternal Relations' started by Roach, May 12, 2013.

  1. bupton52

    bupton52 Moderator Premium Member

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    I just want somebody to do something...........anything but nothing!
     
  2. Star Mztyk

    Star Mztyk Registered User

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    I think about in the GLoT liturgy of why I was presented an apron....it seems we have lost the symbolic innocence of the lamb. What it stands for is a philosophy of conduct esscentially important in being admitted into that Supreme Grand Lodge, not of this world, where the SAoftheU presides. That being said, what Masons will be allowed in? Does this Ultimate GL supercede all this petty Earthy idiocy?

    The different religions of this earth ....the more conservative that they are....say they are the only ones allowed into Heaven and that all others are either profane, infidels, mis-informed or simply not saved. This parallel of thought reflects those attitudes of superiority and alienation. Judge not least you be judged also suggests Tile not least you be Tiled.
     
  3. dfreybur

    dfreybur Premium Member

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  4. dfreybur

    dfreybur Premium Member

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    Lack of recognition was caused by a travesty and it needs to be resolved soonest. Blanket is a simple solution. Not doing recognition in blanket fashion (both directions as you point out) extends that travesty. I prefer to be a part of the solution not a part of the preciptitate.

    Exceptions to the UGLE list and the recommendations by the Conference on Grand Masters tend to be noted both in the GL proceedings and in the quarterly magazine. When many GLs pulled recognition from France our Illinois GM asked us to give them another year to straighten out their GL so we didn't pull recognition.

    I attended California GL three times before I relocated out of state. In the list each year were the PHA jurisdictions that had acheived recognition that year. All were voted in. Having been there during those votes I know the result was the same as blanket recognition. I don't have any reason to believe California does not recognize the entire list as it appears at UGLE as that was the pattern that I eye witnessed.

    On the other hand included in this discussion is the idea that MWPHGLofTX might not recognize California or Illinois and they might have let me in erroneously. They let me in and I am now a regular. I continue in the conundrum that I'd rather not chose but will have to at some point. They have a 6 month limit so my clock is ticking.

    In Washington (WA not DC) the two GLs share office space. They keep their heritages just fine. To those to look towards fear I say look to the light in the Pacific Northwest. An example worth emulating.
     
  5. Michael Neumann

    Michael Neumann Premium Member

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    In both major and minor college fraternities the rules are the same, the younger line must make requests to the older line, but we are beyond the initial request. The GLoTX stands ready to conduct talks on visitation, the MWPHGLoTX cancelled the meeting and **as of now we have heard nothing of them requesting another meeting. In WV there was some issue where the mainstream lodge offered talks on recognition and visitation and the PHA GL declined.**

    (** these are unconfirmed and have flowed through the grapevine, so feel free to correct me)
     
  6. dfreybur

    dfreybur Premium Member

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    The West Virginia situation is an embarrassment. PGM Haas ended up expelled and there were court cases going back and forth. How much of these events revolve around PHA recognition efforts is hard to tell. Records of expulsion and court files are public. We can speculate why PHA would decline an offer of recognition but without the documents we are guessing.

    If you feel bad about the lack of visitation in Texas, look to West Virginia and be relieved some. It can be a lot worse. Then look to Washington (WA not DC) where the two GLs share office space to save money and work together better. It can be a lot better.
     
  7. Michael Hatley

    Michael Hatley Premium Member

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    Bro. Freyburger - really I'm in your camp about finding excuses to visit vs excuses not to anyway, and so most of it is academic anyway as far as I'm concerned. In your shoes, I'd like to think I'd do just what you are doing and glad you are, for what its worth.

    Bro. Upton - In my opinion GLoTX will make the first move if MWPHGLoTX doesn't. But it might take quite some time. I've got a few ideas about how to move the ball on our end as I've met some of the GL folks that might be able to nudge things, but I'm a very, very new Mason relatively speaking, not yet a PM, and so forth. I'm still the kid in the room, and will be for at least a couple more years.

    Speaking time now - in my opinion, it would be a whole, whole lot easier for GLoTX to accept a request for visitation than to move the very heavy body that is at rest into motion. And I suspect, or hope, that it might not be quite as hard for good Brothers like you and others to move MWPHGLoTX to action.

    What I'd really like to do is to get about six to ten of us, half GLoTX, half MWPHGLoTX folks, around a table for a meeting on the subject and then take it from there. Get some strategy going on both sides. Talk about specific men to go talk to. So on and so forth. Take responsibility for the situation and take ownership and try.

    So long as we don't tile the meeting I don't see that it would violate any of our respective obligations.

    If we wait for other people to spearhead the effort we might be waiting a long time.
     
  8. towerbuilder7

    towerbuilder7 Moderator Premium Member

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    Sounds like nothing wrong with a good old fashioned Catfish Dinner, where Brethren come together to "dwell in Unity", and talk Sports, Family, and even Masonry.........It's become almost cliche at this point to say what we are NOT allowed to discuss; we all know this...........BUt, Bro Hatley, you are correct in your statement that it will take initiative from YOUNGER, MORE PROGRESSIVE BRETHREN to be the catalysts for a DISCUSSION..........Both sides need to get over themselves, and put egos aside, and GET 'ER DONE.............We had Brethren who had the tenacity to meet as six under a tree in Brazoria and form a Grand Lodge, and Brothers who came together from 3 different Cities across Texas all the way to Brenham to form our MWPHGLoTX......Then, why in the Hades CANT WE SIT DOWN, EAT SOME CATFISH, DRINK A BEER, AND COME UP WITH SOME IDEAS?!! COUNT ME IN, ANYWHERES IN HOUSTON.............BRO JONES
     
  9. dfreybur

    dfreybur Premium Member

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    Submitting legislation at the annual communication outranks all other tactics. Once the delegates vote there's no higher ranking authority. Over the centuries plenty of issues have been submitted year in and year out until they finally passed. Recognition happened that way.

    That's the deal. As long as the get together is not tiled it's not the type of meeting where rules about visitation apply. This isn't a state where the GM has issued edicts forbidding social contact*. Members can attend each others' social events with no more consequence than happening upon each other at the Mall and having a coffee together to share the fellowship while the wives shop together.

    * When still in my job search a few months ago the status of Masonry in a state mattered. I crossed a few states off the list because the GL there is doing nonsense over racial or religious issues. Masonic reasons weren't my only criteria but I didn't even look at listings in AR, FL, WV.
     
  10. BroBook

    BroBook Premium Member

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    That's really the point if a man wants to be around other men it really does not matter what the other man or body of men says its his own choice every tub has to sit on it's on bottom!!!


    My Freemasonry HD
     
  11. BroBook

    BroBook Premium Member

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    Does not visits from " The Grand lodge "?


    Bro Book
    M.W.U.G.L. Of Fl: P.H.A.
    Excelsior # 43
    At pensacola
     
  12. BroBook

    BroBook Premium Member

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    I meant does not allow!


    Bro Book
    M.W.U.G.L. Of Fl: P.H.A.
    Excelsior # 43
    At pensacola
     
  13. Mike Martin

    Mike Martin Eternal Apprentice Premium Member

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    I strongly suspect that you are wrong with the point above! The UGLE recognises both of the Texas Gradn Lodges which means they recognise us which means there is inter-visitation. If you have a document from your Grand Secretary that states this is not so please let me have a copy which I can give to our Grand Chancellor so that recognition may be withdrawn so as to prevent any possible embarrassment that could occur.
     
  14. MRichard

    MRichard Mark A. Ri'chard Premium Member

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    The GLoT recognizes Prince Hall but there is no visitation. There are about 8 or 9 states in the US that don't recognize Prince Hall that are recognized by the UGLE.
     
  15. tomasball

    tomasball Premium Member

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    Actually, I am open to being corrected on this point. It is indisputable that the MWPHGLoT will not allow a member of the GLoT to sit in one of their lodges...we have the compact to that effect, or a link to it, posted elsewhere on this site, I believe. If they allow other "mainstream" masons this privilege they do not allow us, it would be a very interesting point for discussion.

    I know some have posted here that they were welcomed into Texas PH lodges when visiting from other "mainstream" jurisdictions. I do not know whether that reflects official policy or not.

    Please. There are many Texas PH masons on this board. The policies of the GLoT are clearly stated, and being discussed and criticized all the time on this board. Please tell us the official PH Texas policy on visitation from the UGLE, California, or other "mainstream" jurisdictions.
     
  16. tomasball

    tomasball Premium Member

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    Let me append the observation that, obviously, the compact works (or doesn't work) both ways, and that the GLoT does not receive visitors in its lodges from he MWPHGLoT. And, it's worth noting, that no PH GL has asked the GLoT for recognition subsequent to recognition being extended to the MWPHGLoT. Perhaps they are waiting to see how things work out between the two Texas GLs. Perhaps they do not want to have relations with us. If there are PH members from other jurisdictions, maybe they could tell us the lay of the land out there.
     
  17. bupton52

    bupton52 Moderator Premium Member

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    Speculating here: only members of jurisdictions with mutual recognition AND visitation with the MWPHGLoTX would be able to visit. I have been told that with proper correspondence, it may be possible for exceptions to be made.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using My Freemasonry HD mobile app
     
  18. tomasball

    tomasball Premium Member

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    And, to further stirr the pot. The PH Grand Lodge of Massachusetts, is older than the GLoT, and since the MWPHGLoT is recognized as regular by us by virtue of its descent from them, perhaps we shold petition THEM for recognition.
     
  19. tomasball

    tomasball Premium Member

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    Bro. Upton, I don't want to press for fast answers, but are definite and official answers possible? Aside from being published in the Pantograph Guide, I could call the GLoT office tomorrow and get instant information on whether a member of the UGLE could sit in my lodge. I don't understand why things should be vague on this matter.
     
  20. tomasball

    tomasball Premium Member

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    By the way, Brother Martin...if a UGLE Brother arrived unannounced, without invitation, at any GLoT lodge, with only his dues card and the proper passwords, he would be welcomed and given entry. Is that the case if I "just show up" at a UGLE lodge?
     

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