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Why not visitation?

Mike Martin

Eternal Apprentice
Premium Member
By the way, Brother Martin...if a UGLE Brother arrived unannounced, without invitation, at any GLoT lodge, with only his dues card and the proper passwords, he would be welcomed and given entry. Is that the case if I "just show up" at a UGLE lodge?
No UGLE brother would ever show up unannounced at any Lodge (even our own) let alone one overseas as this would break the agreed Masonic protocol for visiting between Grand Lodges (check with your own Grand Secretary).

If he has not been invited to attend by a member of the Lodge he will have usually sought contact with the foreign Grand Lodge through the office of our Grand Chancellor and will usually have been put in contact through your own Grand Secretary. He will come bearing not only his regalia and Grand Lodge certificate (we do not have Dues Cards) but a letter from the Grand Secretary of the UGLE confirming his position within UGLE.

The same is true of any regular Freemason visiting foreign countries.
 

bupton52

Moderator
Premium Member
Bro. Upton, I don't want to press for fast answers, but are definite and official answers possible? Aside from being published in the Pantograph Guide, I could call the GLoT office tomorrow and get instant information on whether a member of the UGLE could sit in my lodge. I don't understand why things should be vague on this matter.


I'm sure that I could make that same call to our GL and get the same information. We do not have a book of lodges among the collective of PHGLs, unfortunately. My original comment was based on the very basic rules of recognition. If we recognize each other, they can visit. I will dig in a bit though.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using My Freemasonry HD mobile app
 

tomasball

Premium Member
[QUOTE
The same is true of any regular Freemason visiting foreign countries.[/QUOTE]

No, it is not. In Texas, and from my experience most US grand lodges, a mason from a foreign jurisdiction may arrive and be admitted simply by proving himself a member in good standing of a regular lodge. My lodge has not, in my experience, had a visitor from the UGLE, but every winter many brethren from different Canadian jurisdictions visit. There is no procedure for going through the Grand Secretary, or being invited. I am aware in general terms of the procedure in the UGLE and in other countries, and I am aware of the ones over here. I raised the question to illustrate to Brother Martin and others that visitation doesn't mean the same thing everywhere.
 

MRichard

Mark A. Ri'chard
Premium Member
I really wonder if some of this confusion isn't based on an misunderstanding. When tomasball mentioned that GLoT doesn't allow UGLE members to visit Prince Hall, I am sure he was referring to the members of the GLoT. But then again, maybe I am misunderstanding as well. It brings up an interesting question of whether someone could visit a Texas PHA lodge that was from an jurisdiction that recognized Prince Hall.
 

tomasball

Premium Member
Brother Richard, I think maybe I expressed myself poorly, and led to misunderstanding. Let me start over, and forgive me for being lengthy in the interests of being clear.

Certainly, the GLoT can not tell any other Grand Lodge how to manage its fraternal relations.

The UGLE and other non-PH grand lodges refrained from entering into relations with the MWPHGLoT until the GLoT and the MWPHGLoT established relations. They didn't have to, but they did so out of "courtesy" to the grand lodge they were already in relations with.

The agreement between the GLoT and the MWPHGLoT was for limited relations. We mutually recognized each other, but we did not establish the privilege of visitation, affiliation, or transfer of membership. It has been pointed out repeatedly that this limitation was suggested by the MWPHGLoT. That is contained in official reports of the interested committees to the GLoT membership, and I tend to believe it, because I know those men are very carful not to put anything in print that they can't back up. HOWEVER...if the PH side got any unofficial advice from the non-PH side on this matter, it would have doubtless been that the limited proposition was more likely to get a majority vote from the GLoT membership.

At any rate, that is the state of relations between the two Texas grand lodges. At the time, it was considered a given that our relations would eventually evolve to unrestricted affinity, and I am sure that will happen sooner or later.

In the meantime, I assumed, and I think a lot of us assumed, that our sister grand lodges would not enter into any relationships with the MWPHGLoT that afforded their members privileges not enjoyed by our members. That assumption may well be wrong. If the MWPHGLoT welcomes visitors and allows transfer of membership between them and the UGLE, and other non-PH grand lodges, I think it would be a good idea for the members of the GLoT to understand that fact. That is why I have asked more than once if it would be possible to know the official regulations of the MWPHGLoT on that matter.


Tom Ball
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
And, to further stirr the pot. The PH Grand Lodge of Massachusetts, is older than the GLoT, and since the MWPHGLoT is recognized as regular by us by virtue of its descent from them, perhaps we shold petition THEM for recognition.

In my utter lack of authority on any GL level topic in Texas, I hereby ask you to submit legislation to have your jurisdiction do exactly that please. Not just MWPHAGLofMA but any and all of them in the Conference of Grand Masters PHA list. Regular plain recognition please not a copy of any custom compact. I predict that mutual recognition would be accepted from any that has local recognition. I would like to see a test case from one of the ones that does not.

In the meantime, I assumed, and I think a lot of us assumed, that our sister grand lodges would not enter into any relationships with the MWPHGLoT that afforded their members privileges not enjoyed by our members. That assumption may well be wrong. If the MWPHGLoT welcomes visitors and allows transfer of membership between them and the UGLE, and other non-PH grand lodges, I think it would be a good idea for the members of the GLoT to understand that fact ...

As long as "recognition" in place there is no tradition to look closely at detailed restrictions of two other jurisdictions. Recognition is traditionally a yes/no matter without further details, even among jurisdictions that have some with detailed restrictions of their own. When a member of an outside GL there's little expectation to know about local restrictions and no reason to be expected to follow them. Can't visit internally? Not a problem for a brother visiting from other recognizing jurisdictions.
 

Mike Martin

Eternal Apprentice
Premium Member
[QUOTE
The same is true of any regular Freemason visiting foreign countries.

No, it is not. In Texas, and from my experience most US grand lodges, a mason from a foreign jurisdiction may arrive and be admitted simply by proving himself a member in good standing of a regular lodge. My lodge has not, in my experience, had a visitor from the UGLE, but every winter many brethren from different Canadian jurisdictions visit. There is no procedure for going through the Grand Secretary, or being invited. I am aware in general terms of the procedure in the UGLE and in other countries, and I am aware of the ones over here. I raised the question to illustrate to Brother Martin and others that visitation doesn't mean the same thing everywhere.[/QUOTE]

I think you should maybe check with your Grand Secretary. The fact that some Freemasons may ignore or be unaware of the protocol is not evidence that it doesn't exist.
 

Mike Martin

Eternal Apprentice
Premium Member
The UGLE and other non-PH grand lodges refrained from entering into relations with the MWPHGLoT until the GLoT and the MWPHGLoT established relations. They didn't have to, but they did so out of "courtesy" to the grand lodge they were already in relations with.
While this may be true of the other Grand Lodges it is not correct with regard to the UGLE or GLoI or GLoS as we all have a recognition restriction that states:

5. That the Grand Lodge shall have sovereign jurisdiction over the Lodges under its control; i.e. that it shall be a responsible, independent, self-governing organization, with sole and undisputed authority over the Craft or Symbolic Degrees (Entered Apprentice, Fellow Craft, and Master Mason) within its Jurisdiction; and shall not in any way be subject to, or divide such authority with, a Supreme Council or other Power claiming any control or supervision over those degrees.

This means that the UGLE (or GLoI or GLoS) may not recognise a Grand Lodge that shares territory with another unless they both recognise each other.
 

tomasball

Premium Member
No, it is not. In Texas, and from my experience most US grand lodges, a mason from a foreign jurisdiction may arrive and be admitted simply by proving himself a member in good standing of a regular lodge. My lodge has not, in my experience, had a visitor from the UGLE, but every winter many brethren from different Canadian jurisdictions visit. There is no procedure for going through the Grand Secretary, or being invited. I am aware in general terms of the procedure in the UGLE and in other countries, and I am aware of the ones over here. I raised the question to illustrate to Brother Martin and others that visitation doesn't mean the same thing everywhere.

I think you should maybe check with your Grand Secretary. The fact that some Freemasons may ignore or be unaware of the protocol is not evidence that it doesn't exist.[/QUOTE]

I think you maybe should maybe consider that the laws of the Grand Lodge of Texas are not the same as those of the UGLE, and that some of us are well-versed in them. For instance: "Art. 379, Masons of Other Grand Jurisdictions: A Master Mason, in good standing, a member of a lodge under the jurisdiction of any Grand Lodge or other Grand Body which is in fraternal relations with this Grand Lodge, may be admitted as a visitor, subject to the provision of Art. 383." Art. 383 goes on to describe how a visitor may be excluded upon objection by a member or members of the lodge.
 

tomasball

Premium Member
While this may be true of the other Grand Lodges it is not correct with regard to the UGLE or GLoI or GLoS as we all have a recognition restriction that states:

5. That the Grand Lodge shall have sovereign jurisdiction over the Lodges under its control; i.e. that it shall be a responsible, independent, self-governing organization, with sole and undisputed authority over the Craft or Symbolic Degrees (Entered Apprentice, Fellow Craft, and Master Mason) within its Jurisdiction; and shall not in any way be subject to, or divide such authority with, a Supreme Council or other Power claiming any control or supervision over those degrees.

This means that the UGLE (or GLoI or GLoS) may not recognise a Grand Lodge that shares territory with another unless they both recognise each other.
I stand corrected on that point.
 

Mike Martin

Eternal Apprentice
Premium Member
I think you should maybe check with your Grand Secretary. The fact that some Freemasons may ignore or be unaware of the protocol is not evidence that it doesn't exist.

I think you maybe should maybe consider that the laws of the Grand Lodge of Texas are not the same as those of the UGLE, and that some of us are well-versed in them. For instance: "Art. 379, Masons of Other Grand Jurisdictions: A Master Mason, in good standing, a member of a lodge under the jurisdiction of any Grand Lodge or other Grand Body which is in fraternal relations with this Grand Lodge, may be admitted as a visitor, subject to the provision of Art. 383." Art. 383 goes on to describe how a visitor may be excluded upon objection by a member or members of the lodge.[/QUOTE]

I too stand corrected, however, a regulation like this ignores the international visiting protocol which could lead your Grand Lodge's brethren into a very embarrassing situation if they turned up unannounced to a Lodge in the British Isles, Europe, SE Asia or Africa.
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
I think you should maybe check with your Grand Secretary. The fact that some Freemasons may ignore or be unaware of the protocol is not evidence that it doesn't exist.

In my jurisdictions the protocol exists for outgoing travelers in that it is available because it is needed to visit some other jurisdictions. In my jurisdictions the protocol is not required for incoming travelers. Different jurisdiction, different rules but since some jurisdictions use the more restrictive form it needs to be available as an option.
 
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