Would you support a National Grand Lodge?

[coachn]

*Soap box rant alert* Although I am new to freemasonry I do fall into two categories that not Everyone here does:
1) I’m new and came in cold(not having any friends or family as Masons) so I can share a unique experience about joining recently.

2) I’m in my early 30’s and I am apart of the age demographic Freemasonry will have to attractive and retain to stay viable(according to many long time Freemasons I’ve read or talked to about this).

I was in the same boat 17 years ago.

I say that to say this:

I enjoy a good debate and love the exchange of ideas(thus the reason I made this thread) but the level of arrogance that seeems to radiate off of some of these replies here (coach N)is very disappointing.

LOL! You shouldn't make appoints you can't handle.

If this is a hot button issues in freemasonry please advise me as such.

Take you best guess and then think again.

 

[MichianaMason45]

I was in the same boat 17 years ago.- Freemasonry wasn’t in the decline it is in today and millilenials are totally different than the last few generations...

LOL! You shouldn't make appoints you can't handle.

Take you best guess and then think again.

I’m glad you doubled down on seeming like a jerk. I just purposed a subject I thought would be interesting and I was not informed you already spoke for everyone. Have a great day.

 

[MichianaMason45]

Hot button? No. Because it is a non starter. Nobody is proposing or backing the formation of a national GL. It won't happen because that is not how Freemasonry in the United States operates. If experienced Brothers like myself telling you why it is not feasible or desirable comes across as arrogance, I apologize. That was not my intention. But you really have not proposed the move in any way that would benefit the Order. As a new Brother, I believe your time would be far better spent learning how Freemasonry in your Jurisdiction, and others, does operate to give yourself a better informed opinion on the subject. Study Masonic history and jurisprudence, particularly how the jurisdictions we have today have formed over time and what their relationship to each other is. That may help you better formulate an argument for against the subject. And don't take any one Brother's opinion here as law or the end all be all of the discussion. Freemasons and the various jurisdictions are diverse enough you will encounter some practice or laws that make you scratch your head.

You are totally fine, I respect and thank you for your open minded reply. I’m
Not even for starting a National GL, I just enjoy spuring on healthy/interesting debate.

 

[coachn]

I’m glad you doubled down on seeming like a jerk. I just purposed a subject I thought would be interesting and I was not informed you already spoke for everyone. Have a great day.

1. When you don't want people to share their best thoughts, don't ask them to share them.
2. When you want to win friends and influence people, be your best self.
3. When you don't like what's shared, ad homonym responses are about the worst thing you can put forth.
4. When you want to leave an even worse impression, add sarcastic endings to already bad posts.

Welcome to the forum. Read, Listen, Learn!

 

[Warrior1256]

I doubt you are going to find many supporting the argument for the formation of a national GL unless there is a solid argument of how it will actually benefit us.

Precisely...and so far I have heard none.

 

[David612]

If it helps-here’s my perspective;
I too came in cold to the craft
I’m under 30 (just)
I’m not American


This is just my 2c on it but...

I don’t care what GL does or says..

Well that’s not quite true, there are many great brothers working their butts off trying as best they know how to improve their jurisdiction as best they can but at a single lodge level these things aren’t generally felt-
the “casual” mason, you know- the guy who attends lodge once maybe twice a month, has kids and works full time or more, he won’t see these things and to him they aren’t relevant,
His lodge matters to him, the drive he derives from seeing a word perfect charge and having the significance of that bit of ritual finally make sense is where he derives value or maybe he just enjoys the fellowship/beer but no amount of administrative restructuring will change this.

I must say GL seems more like an appendant body-

Not to detract from the terrific work try do but they aren’t the answer to the crafts woes, in my opinion.

 

[Glen Cook]

If it helps-here’s my perspective;
I too came in cold to the craft
I’m under 30 (just)
I’m not American


This is just my 2c on it but...

I don’t care what GL does or says..

Well that’s not quite true, there are many great brothers working their butts off trying as best they know how to improve their jurisdiction as best they can but at a single lodge level these things aren’t generally felt-
the “casual” mason, you know- the guy who attends lodge once maybe twice a month, has kids and works full time or more, he won’t see these things and to him they aren’t relevant,
His lodge matters to him, the drive he derives from seeing a word perfect charge and having the significance of that bit of ritual finally make sense is where he derives value or maybe he just enjoys the fellowship/beer but no amount of administrative restructuring will change this.

I must say GL seems more like an appendant body-

Not to detract from the terrific work try do but they aren’t the answer to the crafts woes, in my opinion.

Indeed, a GL should not impact a quality lodge experience, and it was far removed from my Masonic activity until I started doing grandish things.

 

[David612]

Indeed, a GL should not impact a quality lodge experience, and it was far removed from my Masonic activity until I started doing grandish things.

I’m just not a grand fellow...
That said my view of the craft is limited to say the least.

 

[LK600]

2) I’m in my early 30’s and I am apart of the age demographic Freemasonry will have to attractive and retain to stay viable(according to many long time Freemasons I’ve read or talked to about this).
I say that to say this:

I enjoy a good debate and love the exchange of ideas(thus the reason I made this thread) but the level of arrogance that seeems to radiate off of some of these replies here (coach N)is very disappointing. If this is a hot button issues in freemasonry please advise me as such.

I to am one who will bring up a topic (whether I agree with it or not) for the purpose of debate. I have learned if I'm going to do that, I need to expect robust responses based on the topic's controversial status. Also, whether I feel a comment is rude or not, that has no bearing on my response (always argue the idea and not the delivery). Everyone has different writing styles and ways to express themselves and sometimes based on one's point of view, they may come across in a manner not intended (I have had the opportunity to meet Coachn in person at events and he is a great guy).

Now, to address the idea of a centralized Grand Lodge encompassing all of the States... from a personal level, I would say this. I've been a Mason for approx. 2 years. I am learning the rules of my Grand Lodge (Digest). I am learning the rules of my Lodge (By-Laws). On top of those are whats considered "best practices" which is not necessarily in either the Digest or the By-Laws, but highly suggested. Then, I am learning that beyond that... there are more subtle rules and do's and dont's that are part of none of the above, but will cause significant strife if not followed.

So... I ask myself, "LK... why would I want an additional layer of people I'd likely never meet nor have minimal involvement with forming additional policies and procedures of which I would be required to follow?" My answer will always soundly be Hell No, respectfully.

 

[coachn]

And, once he got to the argument room, not one, count them, not one insult.

 

[dfreybur]

1) I’m new and came in cold(not having any friends or family as Masons) so I can share a unique experience about joining recently.

On the one hand, good ideas tend to come from newbies about as often as from oldbies. It's the new perspective.

On the other hand, obvious ideas that have previously been rejected come form newbies even more often than good ideas. Being newbies they don't have the history.

There are countries in the world that have both federal and provincial jurisdictions. Some work others do not. In every case the costly overhead is handled by reducing everything at one of the two overlapping levels. Germany, Brazil and Mexico have all experienced this process and until you've learned their history you're not in a discussion with a level playing field.

George Washington is reported to have said "He who governs least, governs best". He left us with a country that gradually escalates unity and also Masonic jurisdictions that gradually increase diversity. Both unity and diversity work in their own ways but they are in opposition.

In the Prince Hall branch of our families, a national grand lodge was already tried and it was an epic disaster. Read the history of PHA versus PHO to learn of this. Until the failure modes of that disaster are addressed and handled, reducing the strength of our diversity is a definite non-starter.

When a big change is proposed there needs to be a cost benefit analysis. The cost is an entire additional layer of bureaucracy. Is there an actual benefit? An idea that sounds good or is obvious does not automatically come with a well designed set of benefits. When newbies repeat the common suggestion of a national layer, this part is consistently missed.

Note well that unity is NOT a reason for an added layer of bureaucracy. We already have more unity than we need without that extra cost. In fact compared to the rest of the world in Masonry, we have insufficient diversity.

If you really do want to push for an old failed idea of high cost and low benefit, you very much need to learn the history and show a new cost benefit analysis.

You also need to address issues like the long conflict between state level grand lodges and the international level imperial shrine.

The problem with coming in from the cold is that gives you a lack of history. The obvious becomes a beacon of temptation for you. "We need to do the obvious!" "That was tried in the following six decades and four countries. Here are the failure modes." "Stop being a naysayer and let's do the obvious!" Please don't be that guy. You're already heading that way by calling people jerks for trying to teach you the history.

 

[MichianaMason45]

On the one hand, good ideas tend to come from newbies about as often as from oldbies. It's the new perspective.

On the other hand, obvious ideas that have previously been rejected come form newbies even more often than good ideas. Being newbies they don't have the history.

There are countries in the world that have both federal and provincial jurisdictions. Some work others do not. In every case the costly overhead is handled by reducing everything at one of the two overlapping levels. Germany, Brazil and Mexico have all experienced this process and until you've learned their history you're not in a discussion with a level playing field.

George Washington is reported to have said "He who governs least, governs best". He left us with a country that gradually escalates unity and also Masonic jurisdictions that gradually increase diversity. Both unity and diversity work in their own ways but they are in opposition.

In the Prince Hall branch of our families, a national grand lodge was already tried and it was an epic disaster. Read the history of PHA versus PHO to learn of this. Until the failure modes of that disaster are addressed and handled, reducing the strength of our diversity is a definite non-starter.

When a big change is proposed there needs to be a cost benefit analysis. The cost is an entire additional layer of bureaucracy. Is there an actual benefit? An idea that sounds good or is obvious does not automatically come with a well designed set of benefits. When newbies repeat the common suggestion of a national layer, this part is consistently missed.

Note well that unity is NOT a reason for an added layer of bureaucracy. We already have more unity than we need without that extra cost. In fact compared to the rest of the world in Masonry, we have insufficient diversity.

If you really do want to push for an old failed idea of high cost and low benefit, you very much need to learn the history and show a new cost benefit analysis.

You also need to address issues like the long conflict between state level grand lodges and the international level imperial shrine.

The problem with coming in from the cold is that gives you a lack of history. The obvious becomes a beacon of temptation for you. "We need to do the obvious!" "That was tried in the following six decades and four countries. Here are the failure modes." "Stop being a naysayer and let's do the obvious!" Please don't be that guy. You're already heading that way by calling people jerks for trying to teach you the history.

Thank you for this thoughtful reply. I do want to address the two comments defending the actions of Coach N(or condemning me for calling him a jerk). I should use stronger language(but I didn’t out of respect). I am a grown man and I would not allow this man to talk down to me in person the way he does here. Everyone is allowed to set their own standards for how they will be treated and I will also demand mutual respect. I have shown all due respect and it was not returned. I simply wanted to have a fun/interesting conversation with my new brothers. I knew me being new here and him being well established would lead to some defending him, I’m ok standing on my own. I have come across many people who defend people’s behavior that are knowledgeable or good at their job. I came here(to this website) with the best of intentions. I Didn’t reply for 12-16 hours or so, even when I felt like I’m being talked down to. I am willing to let it go as this thread has turned into something I never intended. In fact, if a moderator could lock this thread, as the OP I would like that(for whatever it’s worth). My experience thus far in Masonry has been with brothers of my lodge and near by lodges(all of which have been positive). The internet doesn’t seem as friendly

 

[LK600]

I do want to address the two comments defending the actions of Coach N

I do believe one of my comments was one of them. To be clear, I don't need to defend anything other than trying to assist you out of a possible emotional misconception.

I am a grown man and I would not allow this man to talk down to me in person the way he does here.

Allow has nothing to do with it. You do not have authority to allow anyone to do or say anything. Now, stepping away from a conversation would achieve exactly what I think you mean, especially as emotionally charged as you seem to have gotten from a post.

I will also demand mutual respect.

See above statement. Your response so far has been worse/just as bad as what you are accusing him of doing.

I knew me being new here and him being well established would lead to some defending him, I’m ok standing on my own. I have come across many people who defend people’s behavior that are knowledgeable or good at their job.

If your standing alone, its because you are being passive aggressive to not only coachn, but also others who tried to explain his and your behavior. That usually doesn't win popularity contests.

I Didn’t reply for 12-16 hours or so, even when I felt like I’m being talked down to. I am willing to let it go as this thread has turned into something I never intended.

Let what go? nobody attacked your honor. You don't like how someone posted to you. You "sound" like you don't like me because I took the time to explain and convey my experience(s) with coachn, which you appear to associate with some kind of negative fanboy-ism and not even consider that one of us might have a perspective to offer you, who is brand new with no experience here. You may be a great guy, its hard to tell from posts (Like I already stated earlier), and I really don't mean to be negative to you. I hope you find a balance here.

 

[coachn]

Thank you for this thoughtful reply. I do want to address the two comments defending the actions of Coach N(or condemning me for calling him a jerk). I should use stronger language(but I didn’t out of respect).

Out of respect for you I shall not post the following: For the love of God, would someone PLEASE take the shovel away from this "grown man". Being a grown man, you should realize the hole you are digging and put the shovel down on your own.

I am a grown man and I would not allow this man to talk down to me in person the way he does here.

As others have posted and thoughtfully not posted, you're a grown man. You should know by now that you don't have this power over others.

Everyone is allowed to set their own standards for how they will be treated and I will also demand mutual respect.

Good! Show us how to be respectful toward you by letting us know when you are "feeling" talked down to and how so that you can enlighten us as to what you deem to be acceptable to you and your standards, rather than reacting with ad homonyms that tell the readers nothing more that that you feel offended.

I have shown all due respect and it was not returned.

WOW! You have no clue as to how you started the manure mound flowing and fanned the fumes. Here, let me point you in the general directions:

1) Couldn’t resist the 51 again? Lol
2) 50 lodges? That doesn’t sound very Grand.
3) I enjoy a good debate and love the exchange of ideas(thus the reason I made this thread) but the level of arrogance that seeems to radiate off of some of these replies here (coach N)is very disappointing.
4) I’m glad you doubled down on seeming like a jerk. I just purposed a subject I thought would be interesting and I was not informed you already spoke for everyone. Have a great day.
​

I provided to you EXACTLY what you were asking - my thoughts and then, when you didn't like what I offered, you attacked rather than ask for more information as to why I responded as I did.

I simply wanted to have a fun/interesting conversation with my new brothers.

Yet, when people play along, have fun with you, you attacked rather than play along.

You could become an awesome contributor if your learning curve was a bit steeper. Brothers here can help you, but you need to tone down your perceived slights and demands and learn the characters in this play first.

I knew me being new here and him being well established would lead to some defending him, I’m ok standing on my own.

Or, it could very well be the character you're portraying currently demands the responses you're getting.

I have come across many people who defend people’s behavior that are knowledgeable or good at their job.

You're not alone.

I came here(to this website) with the best of intentions.

As do we all!

I Didn’t reply for 12-16 hours or so, even when I felt like I’m being talked down to.

That's a good habit to continue exhibiting into the future.

I am willing to let it go as this thread has turned into something I never intended.

Yes, a learning experience if you open yourself up to it. All the Brothers here want you to succeed! Let us support you in this by giving you are best thoughts on the matter. Just be open to the play that comes with the information and have FUN!

In fact, if a moderator could lock this thread, as the OP I would like that(for whatever it’s worth).

You'd miss so much if that were to occur.

My experience thus far in Masonry has been with brothers of my lodge and near by lodges(all of which have been positive). The internet doesn’t seem as friendly

It's friendly, but you have to be open to all the characters friendship brings forth to you. Let the Brothers here show you that it's not how you might be imagining it.

We want you to become better. Let us help you do just that!

 

[MichianaMason45]

I most certainly have the authority to decide what treatment I will accept and if I don’t like it, I’ll call you out(which I did) Have you never stood up for yourself? You must not be Italian... lol I have thanked pretty much everyone who has responded to this post. I am not emotionally charged, I just don’t take any crap and I can not over state how disappointed I’ve been with the Masons I’ve talked to online. I am a member of a few groups on Facebook, etc and others have posted that they are shocked at the disrespectful treatment they have seen/ recieved. Glen cook (a member here and a PastGrand Master from what I understand) was told to “be careful” in a freemasonry Facebook group. Mind you most are new to Freemasonry(read Entered apprentice, which I myself am) and we are venturing online in search of fellowship and brotherly love and are finding people who think they know it all and aren’t willing to even consider the ideas of newly obligated brothers, simply because they are new. It runs contrary to what I thought I a “worldwide brotherhood” would be like. I’ll stick to my local brothers, ones who know/ respect me. I have been accused of being a idealist before... have a good day


I wrote the above before I read your inflammatory post. The things that I said that you claim are inflammatory are a joke. #1 was a joke to Glen because he corrected me about the same thing on Facebook and I saw it as him giving me a hard time in a fun way(which I’m ok with). The others are a direct response to your arrogance and passagressiveness. Do you not see putting “grown man”is disrespectful? Even if you believe your asssment of me is true? The hole I’m digging comments are inflammatory. You strike me as the kind of guy who is very smart but doesn’t do well with the subtleties of interspersonal realationships. You did have some encouging remarks about wanting me to succeed and for that I thank you.
Have a nice day coach

 

[Keith C]

If it helps-here’s my perspective;
I too came in cold to the craft
I’m under 30 (just)
I’m not American


This is just my 2c on it but...

I don’t care what GL does or says..

Well that’s not quite true, there are many great brothers working their butts off trying as best they know how to improve their jurisdiction as best they can but at a single lodge level these things aren’t generally felt-
the “casual” mason, you know- the guy who attends lodge once maybe twice a month, has kids and works full time or more, he won’t see these things and to him they aren’t relevant,
His lodge matters to him, the drive he derives from seeing a word perfect charge and having the significance of that bit of ritual finally make sense is where he derives value or maybe he just enjoys the fellowship/beer but no amount of administrative restructuring will change this.

I must say GL seems more like an appendant body-

Not to detract from the terrific work try do but they aren’t the answer to the crafts woes, in my opinion.

I guess this all depends on your Grand Lodge and Grand Master.

Here in PA, our current RWGM has made several changes that impact every Lodge in the Commonwealth. Additionally the current line of Grand Officers are all on-board to keep the changes in place and progressively add others toward a shared vision for the future. Some of the changes put in place last year:

1) Every Lodge must have a component of Masonic Education at every meeting.
2) Every Lodge must hold at least 2 meetings in the EA degree (The District Visitation and one other)
3) Every First Line Signer of a petition must attend the Masonic Education sessions with their candidate.
4) "Warden School" has been expanded in content and all JW & SW must attend and WMs are optional.
5) A new "Leadership Seminar" has been introduced for any interested Brethren
6) State wide "One Day Classes" have been eliminated. (It is still possible to do all 3 degrees in one day, with dispensation from the RWGM, but Candidates must actually participate, not sit and watch an exemplar.)

The actions of Grand Lodge and a proactive Grand Master can hove a profound effect of the experience in a Lodge, especially one that was not doing what they really should have, but could get by without since it was not codified.

 

[Winter]

I most certainly have the authority to decide what treatment I will accept and if I don’t like it, I’ll call you out(which I did) Have you never stood up for yourself? You must not be Italian... lol I have thanked pretty much everyone who has responded to this post. I am not emotionally charged, I just don’t take any crap and I can not over state how disappointed I’ve been with the Masons I’ve talked to online. I am a member of a few groups on Facebook, etc and others have posted that they are shocked at the disrespectful treatment they have seen/ recieved. Glen cook (a member here and a PastGrand Master from what I understand) was told to “be careful” in a freemasonry Facebook group. Mind you most are new to Freemasonry(read Entered apprentice, which I myself am) and we are venturing online in search of fellowship and brotherly love and are finding people who think they know it all and aren’t willing to even consider the ideas of newly obligated brothers, simply because they are new. It runs contrary to what I thought I a “worldwide brotherhood” would be like. I’ll stick to my local brothers, ones who know/ respect me. I have been accused of being a idealist before... have a good day
I wrote the above before I read your inflammatory post. The things that I said that you claim are inflammatory are a joke. #1 was a joke to Glen because he corrected me about the same thing on Facebook and I saw it as him giving me a hard time in a fun way(which I’m ok with). The others are a direct response to your arrogance and passagressiveness. Do you not see putting “grown man”is disrespectful? Even if you believe your asssment of me is true? The hole I’m digging comments are inflammatory. You strike me as the kind of guy who is very smart but doesn’t do well with the subtleties of interspersonal realationships. You did have some encouging remarks about wanting me to succeed and for that I thank you.
Have a nice day coach

You've had ample replies in this thread providing various viewpoints to allow you to debate the original question you posed. But your only response has been to start a feud with Brother Nagy over his responses which you perceived as insulting. Remember what you came here to do (Freemasonry, not the internet). Subdue your passions and improve yourself in Freemasonry. If you are new to the online world of Masonic discussion there is a very important quote you need to internalize if you are not going to be constantly frustrated. "Always assume positive intent." You are going to encounter Brothers with wildly different views and experience as well as different ways of communicating. Some that may come across to you as less than cordial. But you may want to modify your expectations a bit as you begin. You are entering various online discussion forums where many well established Brothers come to discuss Masonic subjects. And instead of starting at the beginning, you instead post a proposition that would radically alter the landscape of Masonic life in the Untied States without having done even the most cursory research on the topic. And then bemoan that nobody takes you seriously when you you receive overwhelming negative response.

Mind you most are new to Freemasonry(read Entered apprentice, which I myself am) and we are venturing online in search of fellowship and brotherly love and are finding people who think they know it all and aren’t willing to even consider the ideas of newly obligated brothers, simply because they are new.

Your idea was not considered because you are a new Apprentice. Your idea was not considered because it was an uninformed position that you have not even tried to debate. Instead only complaining that you have been treated poorly and going so far as to insult a longstanding and well known Brother. I want you to succeed here as well other online venues, Brother. But to do that you will need to rethink how you post since we do not know you in person like your local Lodge Brothers and many nuances of personality just do not translate in forum posts.

1. The joke you made to Glen about the #51: Post in complete sentences and either reference the post you were replying to or actually insert the quote. Otherwise, others will read it and take something else away from it with the potential for misunderstandings.

2. Remember that you don't know everything or have all the answers. That's harder for some than others, especially for those of us that have been Masonic researchers for over 20 years. But remember that we are all here to learn.

3. Spellcheck and grammar check your posts! lol It seems trivial, but many Brothers, myself included, feel it is hard to take an argument seriously when a poster doesn't even bother trying to use proper grammar. The forum software does most of the work, use it.

4. Again, always assume positive intent. I am reiterating this point because it is the easiest one to forget. Just because someone disagrees with you or your ideas doesn't mean it is personal. I fall into this trap sometimes myself. You should see some of the heated arguments when we discuss Christian only Freemasonry or removing the Shrine as appendant body. This thread has actually been very polite in comparison.

We want you to stay here and enjoy Masonic discussions and I hope you do. But fixating on one poster who you feel has wronged you will just get you put on the ignore list by many. I hope this constructive criticism has helped.

 

[coachn]

I most certainly have the authority to decide what treatment I will accept and if I don’t like it, I’ll call you out(which I did) Have you never stood up for yourself? You must not be Italian... lol I have thanked pretty much everyone who has responded to this post. I am not emotionally charged, I just don’t take any crap and I can not over state how disappointed I’ve been with the Masons I’ve talked to online. I am a member of a few groups on Facebook, etc and others have posted that they are shocked at the disrespectful treatment they have seen/ recieved. Glen cook (a member here and a PastGrand Master from what I understand) was told to “be careful” in a freemasonry Facebook group. Mind you most are new to Freemasonry(read Entered apprentice, which I myself am) and we are venturing online in search of fellowship and brotherly love and are finding people who think they know it all and aren’t willing to even consider the ideas of newly obligated brothers, simply because they are new. It runs contrary to what I thought I a “worldwide brotherhood” would be like. I’ll stick to my local brothers, ones who know/ respect me. I have been accused of being a idealist before... have a good day

I wrote the above before I read your inflammatory post. The things that I said that you claim are inflammatory are a joke. #1 was a joke to Glen because he corrected me about the same thing on Facebook and I saw it as him giving me a hard time in a fun way(which I’m ok with). The others are a direct response to your arrogance and passagressiveness. Do you not see putting “grown man”is disrespectful? Even if you believe your asssment of me is true? The hole I’m digging comments are inflammatory. You strike me as the kind of guy who is very smart but doesn’t do well with the subtleties of interspersonal realationships. You did have some encouging remarks about wanting me to succeed and for that I thank you.
Have a nice day coach

Some points to perpend:
1) You might have the authority, but you certainly don't have the control. Respect it harder to earn once you demand it. Walls are difficult to get around once constructed.
2) You are emotionally charged and you don't realize it... even though you are being told by far too many and in far too many ways. If you hear dog whistles, that is not the poster's problem.
3) My nationality? Seriously?!?!? You talkin' to me? Geez! You got marone!
4) Has it occurred to you even a little that a "grown man" doesn't have to tell other "grown men" that he's a "grown man". Even in the least?!?!
5) When enough people call you an idealist, you might want to ask yourself what messages you're sending for that to be coming your way and the impact it may be having upon others.
6) <chuckle> If you consider my posts inflammatory, you best fly carefully around the light with those flammable wings o' yours.
7) When you joke and expect others to know that you are joking without getting hostile toward you, why shouldn't we expect the same from you when we joke? Double standards do not fly well here. You're exhibiting them more and more with every post.
8.) You appear to sense inklings of arrogance and passive-aggressiveness but not in yourself. This is why the chamber of reflection was such an important part of the EA experience in earlier years. You might want to look into this as well.
9) My assessments are pretty spot on after over 30 years of working with people in recovery and coaching those in denial. Of course, your mileage may vary.
10) The hole you're digging comments are spot on. Yet you continue to dig rather than see what is being reflected back at you. Perhaps you are too far down the hole to see or hear?
11) Perhaps the subtleties you say are lacking are me providing to you purposeful and strategic loving folly in the hopes you'll wake up and get that you're coming across like a bull in a china shop.
12) You're welcome! Please read, reflect and learn! We really are taking the time to give you important, crucial and vital feedback that, from what you have written, is sorely needed in your life.

 

[Glen Cook]

In correcting the number of GLs in the US I was not joking. I was politely correcting a repeated, if minor, mistake. I was unaware it was the same individual making the same factual error. I took your reply on the point as less than cordial but moved on until you decided to attribute to me the manner in which I meant it.

I don’t always agree with Br Nagy. I hope I have never characterised his comments in the manner you chose, and I would not engage in the name calling to which you’ve resorted. Had you done that in my lodge, I might well object to your advancement. Hopefully, that gets across to you how your behaviour is viewed. You could have asked for the facts supporting his views, or even boldly declaring them unsupported, rather than harshly labelling them as you did. One might even suppose that using the term arrogance is an arrogance..

In coming into a new environment, whether it be as shore patrol walking into a bar fight or entering an online discussion (any resemblance between the two situations being merely a coincidence) it is always good to step back and get a lay of the land and let your eyes adjust to the light (pun intended). In this forum, I am pleased to say, we are mostly nice folk and we can engage in discussion and even have stark disagreement without (repeated) name calling. As you accurately noted, FB is not so considerate. Please look at your words. Did you not actually act in the same manner of which you rightly complain?

I’d also suggest that you drew attention away from your theme by beginning a discussion about the discussion. I won’t say that Br Nagy leaves traps, but he does allow the opportunity for posters to critically examine their position and, if they’ve paid attention, they will be aware of his predilection and the construct he uses.

I recommend we draw a line under the “discussion about the discussion “ and return to our regularly scheduled programming.

 

[goomba]

When I first became a Freemason I thought a national grand lodge would be a good idea. Now after being a member of four different grand lodges (one of which I have strong emotions about) I would fear bad leadership could ruin the nation. Whereas even if GL of X were to go dark other GL's next door could help charter lodges in the now vacant area. Additionally there are deep rooted traditions in each of the grand lodges that could be lost. Oh and lets not forget we do have many different "experiments" happening with the many grand lodges.

As to the 51st "grand lodge of state", most tend to forget the Grand Lodge of FAAM of the District of Columbia. This happens to be my grand lodge and it is awesome!