GLs that dont recognize PHA

[Ripcord22A]

This thread is not about the regularity of PHA but rather about black Masons. Ive heard that some of the lodges that dont recognize PHA also dont allow black men to petition their lodges.......how is this possible? I know several white PHA masons, mostly raised in Military lodges, and several black "George Washington" Masons(to steal a line from Bro @dfreybur). Is it true that there are GLs and Lodges out there that wont admit a Man because he is black?

 

[Bloke]

Not true here in Victoria Australia. Not that we have many, but that's reflectant of our population. Most of the Freemasons here who would have experienced racism 100 years ago in society are Indian, "Mediterranean ", Mauritian, Maori with a few Africans and Asians thrown in. I've never seen or heard of an applicant in Austrailia being treated differently because of the colour of his skin.

 

[hanzosbm]

This thread is not about the regularity of PHA but rather about black Masons. Ive heard that some of the lodges that dont recognize PHA also dont allow black men to petition their lodges.......how is this possible? I know several white PHA masons, mostly raised in Military lodges, and several black "George Washington" Masons(to steal a line from Bro @dfreybur). Is it true that there are GLs and Lodges out there that wont admit a Man because he is black?

First, the issue of GLs. I would be willing to put down money that the flat out answer is 'no'. I highly doubt that there is any GL that states that black men cannot be admitted. Furthermore, I doubt that there is any GL that checks the race of every applicant, so I would say not.
Second, are there individual lodges that won't admit black men? I doubt it. For a lodge to put in its bylaws that it is excluding men based solely on race would almost certainly result in a very short lifespan of that lodge.
Third, are the individuals, perhaps even the majority to 100% of the members of the lodge, who would deny a black man admittance? Yes. And while this is unMasonic and disgusting, every Mason present gets a vote and regardless of how ignorant the reason behind it, if he votes no, that's how it goes.

 

[Bill Lins]

I've never seen it put more succinctly.

 

[MRichard]

First, the issue of GLs. I would be willing to put down money that the flat out answer is 'no'. I highly doubt that there is any GL that states that black men cannot be admitted. Furthermore, I doubt that there is any GL that checks the race of every applicant, so I would say not.
Second, are there individual lodges that won't admit black men? I doubt it. For a lodge to put in its bylaws that it is excluding men based solely on race would almost certainly result in a very short lifespan of that lodge.
Third, are the individuals, perhaps even the majority to 100% of the members of the lodge, who would deny a black man admittance? Yes. And while this is unMasonic and disgusting, every Mason present gets a vote and regardless of how ignorant the reason behind it, if he votes no, that's how it goes.

Well, it's not quite so simple. Most of these states are one black ball states and you can't ask someone how they voted.

If you don't live in the US, you will probably not really be familiar with how deep this issue is.

 

[MRichard]

It's a difficult question. Not sure if the grand lodges keep statistics based on race.

 

[hanzosbm]

Well, it's not quite so simple. Most of these states are one black ball states and you can't ask someone how they voted.

I'm sorry, I don't think I understand what that has to do with it.

 

[Warrior1256]

Third, are the individuals, perhaps even the majority to 100% of the members of the lodge, who would deny a black man admittance? Yes. And while this is unMasonic and disgusting, every Mason present gets a vote and regardless of how ignorant the reason behind it, if he votes no, that's how it goes.

I agree that this is most likely.

I've never seen it put more succinctly.

True!

 

[MRichard]

I'm sorry, I don't think I understand what that has to do with it.

It is very simple. It only takes one black ball to deny someone in most states. The current system makes it rather easy for people of a racist temperament to do their bidding. Why would a grand lodge or lodge for that matter open themselves up to potential lawsuits by specifically excluding Black men?

 

[goomba]

I began my Masonic life in one such state and experienced the anti-Masonic things you are talking about. It is a shame when men whom lead grand bodies and lodges do not grasp things an EA should.

 

[MarkR]

It's a difficult question. Not sure if the grand lodges keep statistics based on race.

Since the question isn't asked on the petition, I'm quite certain they don't, at least in my jurisdiction.

 

[hanzosbm]

It is very simple. It only takes one black ball to deny someone in most states. The current system makes it rather easy for people of a racist temperament to do their bidding. Why would a grand lodge or lodge for that matter open themselves up to potential lawsuits by specifically excluding Black men?

I completely agree with you except for the part about the current system having people doing their bidding. Are you suggesting that Grand Lodges are secretly telling members not to allow black men into the lodge? If so, that's a pretty big stretch.

You stated that it's "not that easy" because one black ball can be enough to deny a man entry. That's true, and that speaks to the individual members of a lodge having the ability to keep someone out based on the color of their skin. But unless I wasn't clear in my original post, that was my contention all along.

 

[Warrior1256]

I completely agree with you except for the part about the current system having people doing their bidding. Are you suggesting that Grand Lodges are secretly telling members not to allow black men into the lodge? If so, that's a pretty big stretch.

Certainly is!

 

[MRichard]

I completely agree with you except for the part about the current system having people doing their bidding. Are you suggesting that Grand Lodges are secretly telling members not to allow black men into the lodge? If so, that's a pretty big stretch.

You stated that it's "not that easy" because one black ball can be enough to deny a man entry. That's true, and that speaks to the individual members of a lodge having the ability to keep someone out based on the color of their skin. But unless I wasn't clear in my original post, that was my contention all along.

Actually, that is not what I am suggesting. I was answering a question you asked and referring to a statement you made earlier about grand lodges or lodges not specifically excluding Black men. They were two separate statements. I don't like doing the multiple quotes within one post and didn't feel like making a separate post quoting what I was referring to. So perhaps that made it unclear.

In the first part of the statement I stated that the current system makes it easy for RACISTS to do THEIR (racists') bidding. If I wanted to refer to the grand lodge, I would have stated the grand lodge. The point is that the system is flawed. We are basically still dealing with segregated lodges in some states in this day and age.

And I stated that it was rather easy rather than "not that easy".

 

[hanzosbm]

Actually, that is not what I am suggesting. I was answering a question you asked and referring to a statement you made earlier about grand lodges or lodges not specifically excluding Black men. They were two separate statements. I don't like doing the multiple quotes within one post and didn't feel like making a separate post quoting what I was referring to. So perhaps that may it unclear.

In the first part of the statement I stated that the current system makes it easy for RACISTS to do THEIR (racists') bidding. If I wanted to refer to the grand lodge, I would have stated the grand lodge. The point is that the system is flawed. We are basically still dealing with segregated lodges in some states in this day and age.

Ah, I see. Thank you for clarifying and I'm sorry that I misunderstood.

While I agree that the current system allows racists to exclude people (and I suppose this could extend to people not liking others because of any number of reasons like church, sexual orientation, political leanings, etc) and I wish that this was not the case, I do still believe in the single black ball system.

In the EA degree we are told that if we are at variance with a brother of a lodge that it is better that one or both of us are to retire rather than disturb the harmony of the Lodge. For this reason, I think it is imperative that the vote be unanimous. If I have a problem with a man, for whatever reason, and know that I will not be able to attend Lodge with him, I will obviously vote 'no'. However, if he is initiated anyway, the Lodge has now created a situation where one or both of us will not be able to attend. This is counter productive.

It is sad that racists have found their way into our Lodges. Ideally, the west gate ought to be guarded more closely to prevent this, however, I contend that the system is an effective one if it is properly utilized by its members.

 

[MRichard]

I think the single black ball system is a huge problem. But that is just my opinion. I would prefer multiple black balls.

 

[MRichard]

however, I contend that the system is an effective one if it is properly utilized by its members.

I agree with this. The problem is that it has been traditionally abused by some.

 

[CLewey44]

I have heard of at least one lodge around here that doesn't allow black members. I mentioned it to a fellow 'white' Mason from my lodge and they were as disgusted as I was to hear that. The reasoning was that black men in the U.S. aren't free born which is even more ridiculous. I told the guy that told me of this racist lodge " if their ancestors' misfortunes are causing them to not be considered free born, then wouldn't that mean anyone with Jewish or Native American blood are not considered free-born??" He just said, you're right. Therefore, pretty much nobody in the U.S. could be a Mason really.

I'm not going to stir the hornets nest at this point in my Masonic walk but I would imagine there is no actual evidence that they're being racist since where it's located, there aren't many black men that would even want to join that particular lodge. The problem is, if you consider it a problem, that when a blackball is placed in a ballot, the person does not have to justify why they voted against an individual therefore allowing these actions. I personally don't think you should have to justify voting for or against someone, but if any sort of racist levity is displayed or mentioned, I would say that member should be reprimanded and possibly removed from the fraternity for un-Masonic behavior. I would quit going to my lodge and demit if I ever heard any sort of racist rants or "i'm not voting for them due to skin color, religion, or even sexual preference" I would imagine as Masonic lodges get younger and younger, the race issue will continue to die off. We want black members in my lodge. I'd love to see a sea of different ethnicities, backgrounds and religions.

As for that particular lodge, it isn't doing too well anyways. The fellow that told me about it is a member but stopped going because the lodge had been injected with a toxic protocol of treating those that make mistakes on ritual like fools and more especially he stopped going because when he'd miss a meeting, one or two members were breaking his balls about it. That's not right either.

 

[Warrior1256]

I would imagine as Masonic lodges get younger and younger, the race issue will continue to die off. We want black members in my lodge. I'd love to see a sea of different ethnicities, backgrounds and religions.

I agree and feel the same way.

I think the single black ball system is a huge problem. But that is just my opinion. I would prefer multiple black balls.

I have to disagree with you on this point brother. I most certainly see your point but I support the one black ball for a variety of reasons. Bad things happen in good systems and we must strive to enlighten brothers that would vote against a candidate just because of his color, religion, sexual orientation, etc. This is just my personal opinion.

 

[MRichard]

I agree and feel the same way.

I have to disagree with you on this point brother. I most certainly see your point but I support the one black ball for a variety of reasons. Bad things happen in good systems and we must strive to enlighten brothers that would vote against a candidate just because of his color, religion, sexual orientation, etc. This is just my personal opinion.

The justifications I have heard are just not good enough. Let the investigation committee do their job and expand the methods they can use to investigate a candidate. Let them explain their findings. Let individuals report concerns to the IC, anonymously if need be. Investigate the allegation. Make the candidate sign an agreement authorizing a background investigation.

The system can be improved. Those were just some examples off the top of my hand. It can be done better. I have no doubt about that.