GLs that dont recognize PHA

[tldubb]

As I said earlier in the forum, I think it'd be an excellent appendant body or extra degree maybe. I don't think it should go away but the reason behind it is the problem, segregate. And it's still alive and well in some states unfortunately.

I think too, it'd help dwindling lodge attendance possibly. We'd be less spaced out and so fourth. Some PHA lodges share the same lodge as a non-PHA lodge which I find strange. You're both there for the same reason but segregate yourselves for no particular reason on different nights of the month. Why?

That is not true it is forbidden for a PHA Lodge to share a building with a non-PHA lodge...at least in my jurisdiction which is amongst one of the oldest.

 

[MRichard]

At that time, yes, Prince Hall was considered Clandestine, although I think most brothers would simply use the term 'unrecognized' out of respect. The issue (as it has been communicated to me) was that both the mainstream Grand Lodge of Kentucky and the Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Kentucky (I apologize if I'm not using the correct terms) both considered themselves sovereign. Therefore, for either of them to request recognition from the other would be seen as a sign of inferiority. Sort of like saying 'if I have to ask you for your permission to be a Mason, you must have authority over me'. Both sides saw it as a case of 'if they want to be recognized by us, fine, but they have to come ask us'. Well, with both sides taking that stance, there was never going to be mutual recognition. Obviously, SOMETHING has changed as there is now recognition (albeit without visitation for the time) but I don't know the exact mechanics of how that happened.

Went through the same thing in Texas and I would imagine the issues are somewhat similar in the Southern states but to different degrees. Recognition without visitation was done in approximately 2007. Visitation was approved in December of 2014. You have to get approved for inter-jurisdictional visitation through both grand lodges and it is up to the WM of the visiting lodge to approve and that has to be done for each lodge of the other jurisdiction you want to visit but only has to be done one time for each lodge. It is probably easier to visit a grand lodge in another state.

 

[tldubb]

Please give me an example of such lodges PHA and none PHA that share buildings..and was there any type of dispensation from the GL?

 

[dfreybur]

Please give me an example of such lodges PHA and none PHA that share buildings..and was there any type of dispensation from the GL?

My mother lodge Pasadena 272 California F&AM owns our building. There are several tenant lodges. One tenant is Hiram 12 MW PHA California F&AM.

Recognition was voted in when I was a deacon in the line so 95/96. Hiram lodge had already approached us about tenancy. It took a half year until Hawaii voted for recognition as the PHA jurisdiction was CA+HI at the time so both states had to recognize. Then another half year before the Gr Sec on all 3 sides published their lists of lodges.

The day visitation was allowed we invited Hiram 12 to move in. No dispensation on our end just the slow paperwork process of sending the lists of lodges to make sure every lodge (both of us plus the other tenant lodges) was on one of the lists.

I have no idea if Hiram 12 required dispensation from MWPHGLofCA+HI at the time.

 

[tldubb]

Stand corrected on my part..did my research..

 

[CLewey44]

That is not true it is forbidden for a PHA Lodge to share a building with a non-PHA lodge...at least in my jurisdiction which is amongst one of the oldest.

Please give me an example of such lodges PHA and none PHA that share buildings..and was there any type of dispensation from the GL?

In Oklahoma I've been to one that does.

 

[Glen Cook]

Please give me an example of such lodges PHA and none PHA that share buildings..and was there any type of dispensation from the GL?

In Utah, the two PHA COL lodges meet in GL UT buildings. I cannot say if there was a dispensation.

 

[MRichard]

I can't speak for LA, but my mother lodge is in Kentucky and I move away from KY prior to any form of recognition between mainstream and Prince Hall, so I can speak to that.

At that time, yes, Prince Hall was considered Clandestine, although I think most brothers would simply use the term 'unrecognized' out of respect. The issue (as it has been communicated to me) was that both the mainstream Grand Lodge of Kentucky and the Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Kentucky (I apologize if I'm not using the correct terms) both considered themselves sovereign. Therefore, for either of them to request recognition from the other would be seen as a sign of inferiority. Sort of like saying 'if I have to ask you for your permission to be a Mason, you must have authority over me'. Both sides saw it as a case of 'if they want to be recognized by us, fine, but they have to come ask us'. Well, with both sides taking that stance, there was never going to be mutual recognition. Obviously, SOMETHING has changed as there is now recognition (albeit without visitation for the time) but I don't know the exact mechanics of how that happened.

Going back to my previous statements here, sadly, Kentucky does have racist Masons within some of their/our lodges. That being said, my experience is that this is a very small percentage. I think that for many years, the attitude wasn't one of active rejection, but simply 'they don't need us and we don't need them' in terms of Prince Hall. The older generations, even if not racist, were just fine with that stance. The younger generations disagree and are actively working towards bringing the two together, but it's a slow process. My understanding is that the decision to not have visitation was designed as a temporary measure, and, unfortunate as it might be, I think it's for the best to avoid rocking the boat too quickly.

Just noticed that the PHA grand lodge in KY is not recognized by the UGLE. I believe they have a recognition agreement without visitation between the two grand lodges. That is all you need to be recognized but there must be another step like a request to the UGLE itself. Same thing in Oklahoma. Some PHA don't show up on the UGLE because they are under another states charter and don't have a grand lodge in that area. Not sure in which states though.

 

[Glen Cook]

Just noticed that the PHA grand lodge in KY is not recognized by the UGLE. I believe they have a recognition agreement without visitation between the two grand lodges. That is all you need to be recognized but there must be another step like a request to the UGLE itself. Same thing in Oklahoma. Some PHA don't show up on the UGLE because they are under another states charter and don't have a grand lodge in that area. Not sure in which states though.

To my understanding, UGLE does not solicit recognition.

To clarify, some states don't show up, because there is no PHA GL with that state's name. Utah, for instance, is part of PHA of COL and Its Jurisdictions.

 

[MRichard]

To my understanding, UGLE does not solicit recognition.

To clarify, some states don't show up, because there is no PHA GL with that state!s name. Utah, for instance, is part of PHA of COL and Its Jurisdictions.

There must be a formal recognition request that has to be made even if you are in full or partial amity with the other grand lodge.

 

[dfreybur]

To my understanding, UGLE does not solicit recognition.

Right - Every time a state achieves local recognition the PHA jurisdiction there has to ask the UGLE for recognition. Then the UGLE has historically rubber stamped their approval. For some set or reasons that is not answered in public Oklahoma has not made that request. Those of us who have not attended GL at MWPHGLofOK don't know what discussion has happened on the topic.

Asking doesn't only apply to UGLE. Some states have "blanket" policies to grant recognition when any state achieves recognition but most don't. Among my jurisdictions California offers mutual recognition and waits for a positive response, Illinois grants "blanket" recognition without waiting for response and I haven't studied the Texas policy enough to know how we do it.

To clarify, some states don't show up, because there is no PHA GL with that state!s name. Utah, for instance, is part of PHA of COL and Its Jurisdictions.

True in both branches of our family. I remember when GLofWA+AK split into GLofWAS and GLofAK. I remember when MWPHGLofCA+HI slit into MWPHGLofCA and MWPHGLofHI. Not every state is covered by both branches of our family yet.

 

[Glen Cook]

Stand corrected on my part..did my research..

This refers to clandestine groups, not GLs which are in amity

 

[Bloke]

.... Yes racism still exist here within the jurisdiction. The lodge I joined is called "the Prince Hall lodge" by racist masons in northern Louisiana....

I've been away, but frankly, my lodge is known as a bunch of rebels (in Australia, nothing to do with Amercia's civil war and the South )... We'd wear that badge with pride.

I think multiple black balls to stop a man joining are good, better than just once allowing to bar a man. Let's also remember there are two reasons to black ball, to stop a man becoming a Freemason and/or to stop a man joining your specific lodge. Here, if a black ball is dropped, it is shown as a complete failure of the lodge to process and introduce the potential candidate prior to initiation...

There is a flip side to this discussion - why would you want to join a lodge where racism prevails ? No thank you...

 

[Dontrell Stroman]

I've been away, but frankly, my lodge is known as a bunch of rebels (in Australia, nothing to do with Amercia's civil war and the South )... We'd wear that badge with pride.

I think multiple black balls to stop a man joining are good, better than just once allowing to bar a man. Let's also remember there are two reasons to black ball, to stop a man becoming a Freemason and/or to stop a man joining your specific lodge. Here, if a black ball is dropped, it is shown as a complete failure of the lodge to process and introduce the potential candidate prior to initiation...

There is a flip side to this discussion - why would you want to join a lodge where racism prevails ? No thank you...

Because racism shouldn't be allowed in Freemasonry and how other to break race barriers than to try and join. Take the GL of TN for instance, I know of a couple outstanding black gentleman that tired to join the GL of TN subordinate lodges and was told blacks had to be PHA. If I'm not mistaken there are no black freemasons in the GL of TN nor has there ever been. What does that tell you? Some will say, well we don't have that many blacks as far as population that would want to join. That's a lie, Im from TN and I've traveled all over the state even to the most rural areas where there were a handful of blacks.

 

[Ripcord22A]

Here, if a black ball is dropped, it is shown as a complete failure of the lodge to process and introduce the potential candidate prior to initiation...

I disagree as stated earlier, there are times when a Brother knows something about that candidate that he cannot divulge. In my case I am a member of the GL of Oregon and the GL of NM. I currently reside in NM. If i take a vacation to go back to Oregon and attend lodge and they are voting on someone that has already had their petition read, inv commitee conductedd and reported on and I show up the night of the Vote and I kow this guy to be a horrible person I cna and should drop the black ball.

Now hopefully that man is at the lodge prior to us opening and I would see him and beable to pull a few bros aside and ask why he was there, ect ect and let them know hes a bad dude. sometimes that cant ahappen.

Because racism shouldn't be allowed in Freemasonry and how other to break race barriers than to try and join.

I agree, however that mindset makes me think of the bakery in Oregon that was sued by a gay couple becuase the bakery refused to make them a wedding cake because the owner said it would go against their religious beliefs. The couple sued them for everything the bakery had and was actually forced to go out of business as they lost everything.

If i was in that situation, especially in a city like portland oregon that is very gay friendly, I would go find a bakery that would bake my damn cake. Take your money elsewhere.

Why join a lodge where you are not going to be accepted. That is why you should check out a few lodges if possible before petitioning, or if you are already a mason and moved to a new jurisdiction to attend a few lodges and talk to as many brothers as possible before choosing a lodge to affiliate with.

 

[Dontrell Stroman]

I disagree as stated earlier, there are times when a Brother knows something about that candidate that he cannot divulge. In my case I am a member of the GL of Oregon and the GL of NM. I currently reside in NM. If i take a vacation to go back to Oregon and attend lodge and they are voting on someone that has already had their petition read, inv commitee conductedd and reported on and I show up the night of the Vote and I kow this guy to be a horrible person I cna and should drop the black ball.

Now hopefully that man is at the lodge prior to us opening and I would see him and beable to pull a few bros aside and ask why he was there, ect ect and let them know hes a bad dude. sometimes that cant ahappen.



I agree, however that mindset makes me think of the bakery in Oregon that was sued by a gay couple becuase the bakery refused to make them a wedding cake because the owner said it would go against their religious beliefs. The couple sued them for everything the bakery had and was actually forced to go out of business as they lost everything.

If i was in that situation, especially in a city like portland oregon that is very gay friendly, I would go find a bakery that would bake my damn cake. Take your money elsewhere.

Why join a lodge where you are not going to be accepted. That is why you should check out a few lodges if possible before petitioning, or if you are already a mason and moved to a new jurisdiction to attend a few lodges and talk to as many brothers as possible before choosing a lodge to affiliate with.

I disagree. In other words, continue to let them discriminate and not accept men of different races ? Just go somewhere your accepted. That's the problem, the GL of TN has never accepted a black man to my knowledge, so where would they go ? A man shouldn't have to go out of state to become a mason. These racist bigots in the GL on both sides need to get get with the current times or decide if free masonry is really for them. What if they didn't want to be PHA. A man should not be secluded to one Masonic affiliation just because of his race.

 

[David Carroll jr]

First, the issue of GLs. I would be willing to put down money that the flat out answer is 'no'. I highly doubt that there is any GL that states that black men cannot be admitted. Furthermore, I doubt that there is any GL that checks the race of every applicant, so I would say not.
Second, are there individual lodges that won't admit black men? I doubt it. For a lodge to put in its bylaws that it is excluding men based solely on race would almost certainly result in a very short lifespan of that lodge.
Third, are the individuals, perhaps even the majority to 100% of the members of the lodge, who would deny a black man admittance? Yes. And while this is unMasonic and disgusting, every Mason present gets a vote and regardless of how ignorant the reason behind it, if he votes no, that's how it goes.

I know many lodges that will not admit Black men and if you broach the subject you will find yourself out in the cold. I hate it with a passion but it is what it is and until we can change it we are stuck with it.

 

[Bloke]

.. I hate it with a passion but it is what it is and until we can change it we are stuck with it.

Well brother, without trying to sound smart or being flippant - get cracking on that problem ! IT sounds like it will require constant and purposeful nudging rather than a sledge hammer to move that attitude...

"If it is to be, it is up to me".

 

[Kenneth NC Mason]

I think the whole " can someone get into this lodge in this state because he's black" is irrelevant. I know a brother in Utah who is black that was raised in the mainstream lodge but then was blackballed for York Rite because of some people in the old guard. In NC a black man or any man for that matter can petition a lodge , however there still is some animosity as far as whether or not they'd get in. Just because a state recognizes PH doesn't mean racism still doesn't exist and vice versa. Ex: even though FL LA MS and GA don't recognize PHA I hope a man of any color would be admitted into their lodge..: and I'm sure it's happened once or twice

Regardless .... Just remember to do good unto all and that EVERY human being has a claim on your kind offices

 

[Glen Cook]

I think the whole " can someone get into this lodge in this state because he's black" is irrelevant. I know a brother in Utah who is black that was raised in the mainstream lodge but then was blackballed for York Rite because of some people in the old guard. In NC a black man or any man for that matter can petition a lodge , however there still is some animosity as far as whether or not they'd get in. Just because a state recognizes PH doesn't mean racism still doesn't exist and vice versa. Ex: even though FL LA MS and GA don't recognize PHA I hope a man of any color would be admitted into their lodge..: and I'm sure it's happened once or twice

Regardless .... Just remember to do good unto all and that EVERY human being has a claim on your kind offices

Have the brother make contact with me.