"What you permit, you promote"

Discussion in 'General Freemasonry Discussion' started by Bloke, Feb 16, 2017.

  1. Bloke

    Bloke Premium Member

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    Hi Brothers. I just read
    What an interesting statement.

    I am sure many will have different views on if it's accurate... what "permit" and "promote" means.. but as someone who realises so many things are beyond my control, and also not being very authoritarian and respecting the right of people to do legal things which I do not like and has a belief in freedom and hence many things should not be made illegal based on what I do and don't like. I will permit (tolerate) things I would never promote...

    I think of a brothers recent post on attending a gay wedding when he does not believe in them but the statement was made in the context of leasing a masonic building to an " irregular group" and the fact I've leased ours on occasion to the OTO, which a group I would not promote, the phrase "What you permit you promote" is one I would like to discuss.

    Perhaps this should be in the philosophy section in the context of ethics versus morals ... but what are the thoughts of members of the forum on the phrase "What you permit you promote" ?
     
  2. Ripcord22A

    Ripcord22A Site Benefactor

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  3. Bloke

    Bloke Premium Member

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    I understand the problem !!! LOL...I hope to hear from you my friend, I'm still thinking about it too, but not sure I will get an answer I am happy with by myself.. hence the post..
     
  4. Bloke

    Bloke Premium Member

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    (oh, and did you notice in another thread Coach avoided the words "morals" and "ethics" and used more neutral word "mores" ?)

    *end of Coach bait, puts hand back in burley tin, watches water....*
    :)
     
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  5. JamestheJust

    JamestheJust Registered User

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    It rather depends on how much energy and intent is behind the action or behavior.

    If there is not much energy then it is better to starve the event of attention (oxygen).
     
  6. Companion Joe

    Companion Joe Premium Member

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    I 100% disagree with the statement "What you permit, you promote."
    If everyone would concern themselves with their own business and keep their own business to themselves, we'd all be better off.
    The act of minding your own business when something isn't your concern doesn't equate to promoting it.
     
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  7. Bloke

    Bloke Premium Member

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    Thanks Joe. Its interesting, even "what you do, you promote" is something I disagree with, because not everything I do is good. Smoking being the best example.. but I've twisted the statement and it is probably too yearly for that...

    I think one of the problems with the statement is it kinda calls you to be some sort of policemen of other peoples behavior... but again, if we say, permit someone to break the law, especially in a way which hurts others, then are we not promoting what we permit ?

    I'll be really interested to see others responses..

    Thanks for replying Joe..
     
  8. Brother JC

    Brother JC Vigilant Staff Member

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    I disagree (as I did in the original thread). If I own a music venue and I only allow bands I personally like to play, I'm going to go broke.
     
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  9. Companion Joe

    Companion Joe Premium Member

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    Too many cases of hard stances such as this have gotten the world in the shape it is. Nobody has tolerance, and nobody is willing to process any information if it doesn't support what they already believe.
    (I'm not talking about crime or something that harms/injures people.)
    Not publicly condemning something or permitting it to be done doesn't mean I am promoting it. That means I am minding my own business.
    Just because I don't wave the flag for whatever the public cause du jour is doesn't make me an "...ist" or a "...phobe." It simply means it doesn't affect my life one way or the other, so I'm staying out of it.
     
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  10. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

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    <snicker> Wording is sometimes crucial.
     
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  11. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

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    It's a BS phrase thrown about to justify deeply entrenched bigotry.
    Much of the time the word "permit" can't possibly or rightfully apply to what is being targeted.
    As for the word "promote", it's an unbelievably guilting-shaming word used to manipulate and it has nothing to do with who would be accused based upon their participatory behavior.
    I dismiss it as irrelevant.
     
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  12. Brother JC

    Brother JC Vigilant Staff Member

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    To promote something is to advertise it. Even if you actively permit something to happen (as opposed to tolerating it and allowing it to happen) you are not actively promoting it.
     
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  13. Bloke

    Bloke Premium Member

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    Doesn't sound like the phrase is getting much traction with respondents so far.

    Let's narrow it down.

    How about bullying? If you have a lodge officer who bullies others and you do nothing, doesn't that tacitly endorse the behaviour ? Would the phrase apply then ?

    What about with your children, if you let them lie to get what they want, does the phrase apply then ?
     
  14. Ripcord22A

    Ripcord22A Site Benefactor

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    This is what i was leaning towards. JCs example of a music venue and Joes about waiving the flag i agree that the term doesnt apply there. But in Allowing a clandestine lodge to use our building and initiate possibly unsuspecting men into their order says that they are endorsing clandestine masonry. As for the Wicans that meet there...of course Freemasonry accepts that as we accept all religion.
    As you mentioned in the OP about the gay wedding...your not permitting that as you cant stop it. But if i allow my kids to be bullies and liars then yeah im promoting that.

    Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app
     
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  15. Keith C

    Keith C Registered User

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    Like most things this idea isn't an absolute in my opinion.

    The original situation this phrase was applied to, I do not think it is applicable. While my lodge does not rent space to outside organizations the church I belong to does and I think the situation is equivalent. We rent space to a Day Care, but other than how the building is used we have no input on how or what they teach. We only insist on assurances that they remain in compliance with all applicable regulations. Additionally we rent our sanctuary to a small congregation from another denomination, who's Theology, form of governance and philosophies are quite different than ours. We do not promote these beliefs but have no problem allowing them to use the space as long as it is done respectfully and all is left as it was found. So in renting out space I do not think you promote another groups beliefs, philosophies, etc by the act.

    However, where that phrase is true is in governing the behavior of your own lodge. There have been several threads recently regarding different issues observed in lodge, cell phone use, side conversations, unmasonic behavior, etc. I am of the opinion that if these things are permitted or left un-checked they are promoted. If someone sits through an entire meeting engaged with their cell phone, and nothing is said or done, they will continue in this behavior, and others seeing it who are so inclined will follow suit. A recent example from my lodge. Our SW last year, now our WM is hard of hearing. We have several more senior members, who I might add, have never been through the chairs, but see themselves as experts in the conducting of ritual. Apparently through most of last year anything the WM did that they thought was "not right" would elicit chatter among themselves. They always sit in the West, just to the right of the SWs station. The SW, being hard of hearing did not ever notice this chatter. The JW would speak to these brothers after meeting and politely ask them to refrain, but to no avail. At our first stated meeting this year the new WM hesitated several times during the opening charge to remember the words. The peanut gallery started to do their usual chatter. The new SW, aware of their past behavior noted it, struck his gavel and announced "The brethren will conduct themselves with the respect due the Oriental Chair." The chatter stopped and hasn't returned. So in the case of condoned behavior I think it is perceived as promoting poor behavior if it is permitted.
     
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  16. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

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    No
    No

     
  17. Brother JC

    Brother JC Vigilant Staff Member

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    See, I don't feel like we are the Masonic Police Force. The co-masons do not see themselves as "clandestine." Look at that charter, it's addressed to "all regular masons." If someone wants to join them they will, it's neither my job or my duty to work against that.
    These people do good work and are proud of their lodge. They don't advertise, very few people outside of their or our organizations know they meet there, and someone who does due diligence will select the lodge they truly want.
     
  18. Bloke

    Bloke Premium Member

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    The article by Bro Karen Kidd titled "Am I regular" changed my thinking on regularity- it's relative.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
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  19. Ripcord22A

    Ripcord22A Site Benefactor

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  20. Bloke

    Bloke Premium Member

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    LOL... Short and sweet.

    So are all are moral duties purely concerned with the inner man Coach?

    ( and I can see your next response.... a single "no"..... :) )
     

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