Why do we hold stated meetings on the MM degree only?

[dfreybur]

That makes the most sense to me. I have been to a lodge in TX that was holding a stated meeting on the EA degree. The one EA that was there couldn't vote if I'm not mistaken.

Brothers not yet MM having no vote is one more old result of the Morgan affair and the anti-Masonic movement. It's a crazy requirement and it violates the world wide standard but as I already mentioned few Americans care about that. I figure get everyone int he US used to having Stated meetings in any degree, then propose restoring the world wide standard of charging dues and giving vote to all Brothers of the lodge.

 

[Keith C]

That makes the most sense to me. I have been to a lodge in TX that was holding a stated meeting on the EA degree. The one EA that was there couldn't vote if I'm not mistaken.

Indeed EAs can't vote here either, nor do they pay dues.

 

[CLewey44]

Brothers not yet MM having no vote is one more old result of the Morgan affair and the anti-Masonic movement. It's a crazy requirement and it violates the world wide standard but as I already mentioned few Americans care about that. I figure get everyone int he US used to having Stated meetings in any degree, then propose restoring the world wide standard of charging dues and giving vote to all Brothers of the lodge.

That sounds like a good idea to me.

Most American Masons are like the military reserve or guard (I'm reserve now and American so I can say this lol) of Masonry and most of the rest of the world is like active duty Masonry. We hold the same ranks in reserve but probably perform about two ranks lower than our rank would indicate. (MMs that have zero clue what is going on) Whereas the active duty will have E-4s performing two ranks above their paygrades. (EAs that walk the walk and talk the talk with their noses in books) We figure this out when we go on orders (visit foreign lodges) and quickly get a reality check. Reserve will have 8 year E-7s and active duty will have 8 year E-4s.

This doesn't apply to all reservists(American Masons) as some are highly versed due to their involvement in their duties and also, there are some piss poor active duty(rest of the world) members as well. But our one day conferrals, or even three month progression to the "most sublime degree" come off negatively to our foreign Brethren I would imagine.

 

[Warrior1256]

It may violate the world wide standard but lots of American Masons don't care in the least about world wide standards. The MM only policy violates no landmarks so it's just something Brothers in other countries view as just one more American oddity.

Agreed. The Grand Lodge of Kentucky Constitution allows for opening the lodge on the Master Mason degree only. I am in the minority on this subject here as I agree with this. As a candidate can achieve MM status in less than three months in my jurisdiction I don't see a problem with opening on the MM degree only. JMHO.

My Royal Arch Chapter meets on the Royal Arch Degree, My Cryptic Council meets on the Select Master Degree, my Commandery meets on the Order of the Temple, My Scottish Rite Valley meets on the 32°.

Same here.

 

[Winter]

Agreed. The Grand Lodge of Kentucky Constitution allows for opening the lodge on the Master Mason degree only. I am in the minority on this subject here as I agree with this. As a candidate can achieve MM status in less than three months in my jurisdiction I don't see a problem with opening on the MM degree only. JMHO.

Same here.

The problem isn't the degree you open on. The problem is a candidate getting his MM degree in less than 3 months. There is no way a person can memorize and internalize the teachings of the three degrees in less than 90 days. And the reason we rush people through all 3 degrees here in the states is because we changed the degree we must do business on from the EA to MM after the Morgan Affair and want to make them full participating members as fast as possible. The solution created the problem we are now dealing with as we make members, not Masons.

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[JanneProeliator]

In Finland we open in third and go to second or first just for the degrees. It took me a year to get from EA to MM and I wasn't unhappy with not being able to get to go to the meetings. I was invited to see other EA or FC degrees (according to my degree offcourse) and we had festive board everytime after the meeting so I was able to attend and socialise with my brothers. I was welcommed also to other lodges of my city to visit the degrees in their lodges. Unfortunatelly I wasn't able to do that. (I have yet to visit other lodges here but I will)

I felt that the time before was like prospect time for me to get to be the full member of the brotherhood. I was a mason but didn't have my full wings yet so to speak. After I got my MM and become full member of the lodge and the brotherhood it felt special.

 

[David612]

There is a significant disconnect between wanting a Man to be initiated, passed and raised in the craft through learning the work well, internalising the values and generally becoming what we want to see from candidates and new masons and opening on the master mason degree and not allowing EA and FC to vote-
Just my 2c but it dosnt really come across as being on the level-

If you can rush a candidate through then that’s great but I don’t belive this what’s best for the candidate, the lodge or the craft.

 

[coachn]

The problem isn't the degree you open on. The problem is a candidate getting his MM degree in less than 3 months. There is no way a person can memorize and internalize the teachings of the three degrees in less than 90 days. And the reason we rush people through all 3 degrees here in the states is because we changed the degree we must do business on from the EA to MM after the Morgan Affair and want to make them full participating members as fast as possible. The solution created the problem we are now dealing with as we make members, not Masons.

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The problem is candidates are not getting Masonic training which requires deep understanding; they're getting theatrical training which requires no understanding whatsoever!

We rush them through not so they can sit in on boring meetings at the MM level. They're rushed through so that they can 1) replace the people who don't want to sit in on the boring meetings, 2) be replacements for those abandoning ship and 3) do all this before they realize the ship they boarded.

 

[Warrior1256]

And the reason we rush people through all 3 degrees here in the states is because we changed the degree we must do business on from the EA to MM after the Morgan Affair and want to make them full participating members as fast as possible. The solution created the problem we are now dealing with as we make members, not Masons.

They're rushed through so that they can 1) replace the people who don't want to sit in on the boring meetings, 2) be replacements for those abandoning ship and 3) do all this before they realize the ship they boarded.

Both good points.

 

[coachn]

Both good points.

Points that it pains me to point out.

 

[Bill Lins]

Agreed. The Grand Lodge of Kentucky Constitution allows for opening the lodge on the Master Mason degree only. I am in the minority on this subject here as I agree with this.

That's how it was in Texas back when I went through the Degrees & I didn't have a problem with it. I understood that I had much to learn before I could sit in a Master's Lodge, understand what was going on, & cast a vote (somewhat) intelligently. I thought of it as "paying my dues" & earning the status of MM. The change to doing business in EA & FC Lodges was promoted as a way of increasing retention. From what I've seen, it hasn't worked.

 

[Winter]

That's how it was in Texas back when I went through the Degrees & I didn't have a problem with it. I understood that I had much to learn before I could sit in a Master's Lodge, understand what was going on, & cast a vote (somewhat) intelligently. I thought of it as "paying my dues" & earning the status of MM. The change to doing business in EA & FC Lodges was promoted as a way of increasing retention. From what I've seen, it hasn't worked.

Did they do anything besides just conduct the same business on a lower degree? If not, I can see why it had no effect. Conducting business on the EA degree isn't the goal. Conducting business on the EA degree because new initiates spend longer as EA's and FC's as they go through an intensive period of study and growth before being found ready for the next degree because they should absolutely have a stake in the Lodge they are being initiated in is. If a Lodge has the same mind-numbingly tedious business meetings like so many others today and the only change is to just open it to EA's and FC's, well I can very well see why it hasn't worked. Since you didn't say if anything else changed I am just making assumptions to continue the discussion.

 

[coachn]

Did they do anything besides just conduct the same business on a lower degree? If not, I can see why it had no effect. Conducting business on the EA degree isn't the goal. Conducting business on the EA degree because new initiates spend longer as EA's and FC's as they go through an intensive period of study and growth before being found ready for the next degree because they should absolutely have a stake in the Lodge they are being initiated in is. If a Lodge has the same mind-numbingly tedious business meetings like so many others today and the only change is to just open it to EA's and FC's, well I can very well see why it hasn't worked. Since you didn't say if anything else changed I am just making assumptions to continue the discussion.

^^^THIS!!!!^^^

 

[Warrior1256]

I understood that I had much to learn before I could sit in a Master's Lodge, understand what was going on, & cast a vote (somewhat) intelligently.

This is exactly the way that I look at it.

 

[Winter]

This is exactly the way that I look at it.

I just do not see the benefit of rushing a new Brother through the degrees so they have the title of Master Mason and then hoping that they will eventually catch up and learn the teachings of all three degrees later. A more likely scenario is that they are the new blood in the Lodge and as soon as they are a full member, having gone through the forms, they immediately are pulled into the Lodge's officers line, or other committees, or even the Appendant Bodies. And that catch up never happens.

When I became a Mason over 20 years ago I went in pretty blind. There were not a ton of Masonic resources on the internet back then and my local library and bookstore mostly had books on Masonic conspiracies. My Lodge brought me in during a Man-to-Mason event where I watched an exemplar go through each degree and only participated when it came time to place my hands on the VSL to take my Ob. I didn't know that wasn't how it was supposed to be done until after I was a supposed Master Mason. I will always argue against anything that takes away that initiatic experience from our candidates. And rushing them through the degrees in the shortest time possible so they can attend a business meeting is as bad as conferring all three degrees in the same day. If we want to see real positive change in the Craft, then we must go back to the basics and build a true initiatic experience. Otherwise we will be having the same discussions in another twenty years.

 

[CLewey44]

....Otherwise we will be having the same discussions in another twenty years.

If we're lucky...

 

[LK600]

It took me a year to get from EA to MM and I wasn't unhappy with not being able to get to go to the meetings. I was invited to see other EA or FC degrees (according to my degree offcourse) and we had festive board everytime after the meeting so I was able to attend and socialise with my brothers.

Very similar to my experience going through. While I memorized each within a couple weeks, there was a wait in between each degree which allowed me to fill my time with a deeper dive into each area and more. I'm not sure though, unless specifically guided, all new Brothers would consider taking a deeper dive on their own (or even aware they are allowed).

The problem is candidates are not getting Masonic training which requires deep understanding; they're getting theatrical training which requires no understanding whatsoever!

And I wonder.... how many generations at this point have operated in this fashion? Possibly specific things are not changing because longer term Brothers do not know how?

 

[Warrior1256]

I just do not see the benefit of rushing a new Brother through the degrees so they have the title of Master Mason and then hoping that they will eventually catch up and learn the teachings of all three degrees later. A more likely scenario is that they are the new blood in the Lodge and as soon as they are a full member, having gone through the forms, they immediately are pulled into the Lodge's officers line, or other committees, or even the Appendant Bodies. And that catch up never happens.

I agree! I think that at least 6 months should go by between degrees with Masonic education before EA and between the degrees.

 

[KentuckyMason]

I would like to see Blue Lodges embrace the idea of doing business on the EA for at least 1 meeting per month. Or maybe every other month. Too often an EA goes through his initiation and due to school, life, work, etc. may have a long period of time between their EA, learning their proficiency and moving to FC. During this time they could lose interest. Inviting EAs and FCs to stated meetings held on the EA degree regularly could do well to keep them warm.

 

[Winter]

I would like to see Blue Lodges embrace the idea of doing business on the EA for at least 1 meeting per month. Or maybe every other month. Too often an EA goes through his initiation and due to school, life, work, etc. may have a long period of time between their EA, learning their proficiency and moving to FC. During this time they could lose interest. Inviting EAs and FCs to stated meetings held on the EA degree regularly could do well to keep them warm.

Or, if you meet like my EC Lodge does, every meeting is on the EA degree and all business is conducted that way so all EAs are full participating members. We only open on a higher degree to confer that degree.

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