Widows Sons

Discussion in 'General Freemasonry Discussion' started by Sk3tchNinja, Mar 25, 2015.

  1. Companion Joe

    Companion Joe Premium Member

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    Browncoat,
    MarkR is 100% correct in his point, and you need to give up the straw man argument about the Commandery; it doesn't hold up.
    It isn't about whether these guys are good people or not. It isn't about Masons meeting on the level regardless of station in life. It is about the image they are projecting to the general public.
    As for the Commandery, I have never heard of anyone throwing on their uniform to run to the grocery store or go out to eat. If a member did stop off somewhere on his way to or from a function, he's most likely going to remove his jacket (meaning it's just a guy wearing a white shirt and black tie) and certainly wouldn't wear in his chapeau. On the one in a million chance someone did feel compelled to go out on the town in full uniform, at least in my state, a Commandery uniform has nothing on it the general public would recognize as Masonic.
    Weren't you the one some time back campaigning for EAs to be able to wear Masonic regalia? If so, this is the reason why they don't; most EAs aren't informed enough to speak knowledgeably about the Craft. If not, I apologize.
     
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  2. pointwithinacircle2

    pointwithinacircle2 Rapscallion Premium Member

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    Well, if you want to compare the Widows Sons situation to other situations I can understand that. But lets compare it something a little more realistic than a man in a fluffy hat, OK? Recreational drug users are generally looked down upon by society. However, in my state, medicinal marijuana is legal. So lets consider how we would feel about a Brother wearing a shirt with the S&C on it smoking marijuana in a public park. Now we have a more accurate comparison. Now we are talking about two activities that both look threatening and possibly illegal to some people, but technically are not. Are you still ready to defend what appears to be shady behavior because it is technically not illegal?
     
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  3. Browncoat

    Browncoat Registered User

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    Just because we disagree doesn't make my point of view strawman. No one EVER changed someone's mind on an internet forum, so I don't expect precedent to be broken here. And for the record, I was arguing that the majority of states do not have actual bylaws restricting EAs or FCs from wearing a Masonic ring. It is a local/Lodge tradition rather than being "against the rules" that some were claiming.

    I understand the connection you're trying to make, but I think it's too far of a stretch. We're talking about clothing here, and nothing more. If the Widow's Sons were to ride in matching polo shirts and khakis, none of this would be an issue.
     
  4. pointwithinacircle2

    pointwithinacircle2 Rapscallion Premium Member

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    Thank you for understanding my point, even if we disagree on it's applicability.
    So the Grand Lodge says "If you want to be a recognized Masonic Group you can't do X, Y, and Z. And the Widows Sons say "We don't care what you say, we are gonna do X,Y, and Z anyway". This doesn't sound like a clothing is the problem to me.
     
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  5. Browncoat

    Browncoat Registered User

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    Because everyone else always says "how high?" when the Grand Lodge says "jump", right? There's never any disagreement, backstabbing, arguing, whining, kicking, biting, or screaming is there?

    C'mon now. You'll have to do better than that.
     
  6. MarkR

    MarkR Premium Member

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    EXACTLY! You're understanding our objection! It's looking like an outlaw motorcycle gang while displaying Masonic insignia that's the problem! The general public sees them, is intimidated by their appearance, connects that intimidation to the Masons. And they choose, quite deliberately, to look like an outlaw motorcycle gang, and I simply don't see how that is good for the craft.

    As for your Commandery argument, I doubt quite seriously that anyone looks at KT's in their Captain Crunch hats and thinks that they're people to be feared. I recently talked to a brother who attended a meeting to possibly form a local chapter. Representatives from the State group were there in full Widow's Sons attire. They were meeting in a side room of a restaurant. A couple of young kids walked in and sat at a table. Shortly their parents followed. When they saw the group of Widow's Sons, their eyes widened, they got their children up from the table, and hustled them out of the room. Just the reaction we need Masonry to generate in small-town America.
     
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  7. Browncoat

    Browncoat Registered User

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    Isn't it convenient that now some are concerned about public perception? Freemasonry has long been associated with secret societies, the Illuminati, New World Order, satan worship, among other things. But that's all okay. We'll just continue to display nifty cryptic bumper stickers like 2B1ASK1 and giggle behind closed doors at how uninformed society is at our little boys club here.

    But if some guys throw on a leather jacket and ride motorcycles, hold the phone and stop the presses. Freemasonry suddenly has a public image problem that needs nipped in the bud. We certainly don't want that kind of bad imagery associated with the Craft. Satanism, cool. Biker gangs, not cool.

    o_O
     
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  8. dalinkou

    dalinkou Premium Member

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    I have no horse in either race, but you do realize that their is a difference between guys with their tin foil hats wrapped a little too tight (i.e. purveyors of conspiracy theories. Illuminati watchers, etc.) and sighting guys on Harleys with S&C on their backs, right?

    I know a lot of Masons who ride and they're great guys. If I saw a group on the highway, I'd wave when they went past or check on them to see if they needed anything if they were stopped somewhere. But let's be clear. You and I know the difference between the Bandidos and Widows Sons, and the general public does not, which I believe is the question.

    If you still want to ride with masonic markings on your jacket, go in peace and may God be with you. If I see you I'll stop and buy you a cup of coffee or bring you water to carry on you ride. Just don't kid yourself about the perception that the uninitiated will have of you.
     
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  9. LAMason

    LAMason Premium Member

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    [​IMG]
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    I can assure you that I am not a prude or an elitist and you can try to make people think you are an outlaw biker, a pimp daddy, or any other gutter life style you want, just don’t try to drag Freemasonry into that gutter with you.
     
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  10. Ripcord22A

    Ripcord22A Site Benefactor

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    That second picture is just bad judgement. No 1% would ever throw up "W" which is the Westside gang hand symbol which is a blck and hispanic gang symbol....everyone knows almost all 1%ers are white supremisicists....also long as the vest doesn't have a 3 piece arched cut and a 1%er patch on it then you know they aren't
     
  11. LAMason

    LAMason Premium Member

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    You may know that, but I can assure you that most of the people (including me) I know are not knowledgeable about outlaw biker apparel protocol and if they see a group of men or pictures of a group of men dressed like the men in these pictures they will consider them as being members of groups that are objectionable.

    I have one simple question, what facet of the lifestyle of an outlaw biker gang is worthy of imitation? And don't say their brotherhood because you already have that with Freemasonry or riding motorcycles because you can do that without looking like an outlaw, many Shriners have been doing that for years.

    See: https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/Digitization/147691NCJRS.pdf
     
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  12. pointwithinacircle2

    pointwithinacircle2 Rapscallion Premium Member

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    OUCH! Did you just defend the Widows Sons by saying that they imitate white supremacists, but aren't really? Gotta tell ya, that argument won't work on me.
     
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  13. Ripcord22A

    Ripcord22A Site Benefactor

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    No what i was saying is that those guys in that pic are idiots......
     
  14. Ripcord22A

    Ripcord22A Site Benefactor

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    I dont ride, dont have a bike, and probably never will but i will support the widow sons as everysingle one of them that I have met have been amazing human beings....there is a news story here in NM a day after the WACO incident where a Christian Bieker club rode up to KOAT news in Albuquerque and donated a crap load of money to a childrens charity and u guessed it....every single one of them were dressed like one percenters but as soon as they opened their mouth you knew they were differnt...widows sons are no different
     
  15. MRichard

    MRichard Mark A. Ri'chard Premium Member

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    Some of the 1% gangs do charity work too, to make themselves look good; but they also deal in prostitution, drugs, human trafficking, etc.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2015
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  16. LAMason

    LAMason Premium Member

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    You just made the point that many have already been making in this thread. All of those men may be "amazing human beings" also, but you formed a negative opinion about them based on what you see because you do not know them. So why would you think that people who know nothing about Freemasonry, Widow's Sons, or outlaw biker patch details would not think they were Outlaw Bikers and that since they are wearing the S & C that that they are representative of what Freemasonry stands for?
     
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  17. pointwithinacircle2

    pointwithinacircle2 Rapscallion Premium Member

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  18. Ripcord22A

    Ripcord22A Site Benefactor

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    I only said they were idiots cause they were flashing the Westside gang symbol like they were tupac and snoop dog
     
  19. Ripcord22A

    Ripcord22A Site Benefactor

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  20. Glen Cook

    Glen Cook G A Cook Site Benefactor

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    hmm. Using my image without permission. :)
     

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