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How old is freemasonry?

pointwithinacircle2

pointwithinacircle2

Rapscallion
Premium Member
nixxon2000 said:
So I think I'd like to go back to my question.

How old do "you" think freemasonry is? Who/which group started masonry as we know it today? Is there any evidence that someone like Socrates was a Freemason?
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Well, someone has to go out on a limb here so it may as well be me. I propose that history of the Ancient Mystery Schools, as we know them, is approximately 6000 years old. To say that these are Freemasonry one must be willing to accept all of the Ancient Mystery Schools as antecedents of the Freemasonry that we know today. Additionally, there were probably schools of thought prior to 6000 years ago that are now lost to history. These oral traditions no doubt fed the traditions that evolved into the Ancient Mystery Schools.

But the real question, as I stated before, is not "How old is Freemasonry?" Because the question contains an unspoken assumption. It assumes that we all agree on the answer to the question "What is Freemasonry". I feel that it is valid for me to answer your question because I have already stated my answer to the unspoken assumption in your question in the post quoted below.

I will now don my fireproof suit and wait for comments from my Brethern.

pointwithinacircle2 said:
I think it depends on which Freemasonry you are talking about. The time frame for Speculative Freemasonry runs from 1717 to the present. Before that we have two time periods to discuss. The first is the time frame of Operative Freemasonry, and the second is the time frame for the evolution of Operative Freemasonry into Speculative Freemasonry.

But really, any discussion of Operative Freemasonry hangs on one vital question; "What do you think Operative Freemasonry actually is?" Some, perhaps like the Brother you mentioned, see Operative Freemasonry as the pursuit of truth that goes back to the first time a man tried to rise above his fear and superstition and discover the truth about the world around him and his relationship to that world. Others will say that Operative Freemasons were men who stacked rocks and learned enough geometry to build arches and stuff.

To me being a Freemason means to be a protector of knowledge against its three greatest enemies; Fear, Ignorance, and Superstition. In ancient times secrecy was used to protect knowledge from those who sought to destroy it. Today circumspection and silence are recommended.

Many today will say that there is no certain proof of what Operative Freemasonry was all about. Yet there are clues in our history if we can find it in out ourselves to trust our hearts.
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pointwithinacircle2

pointwithinacircle2

Rapscallion
Premium Member
It is interesting that this thread does not allow me to correct grammatical errors in my posts using the edit function. Perhaps a moderator can explain why.........................
 
Morris

Morris

Premium Member
I believe operatives built building and not people. The Age of Enlightenment brought new ways of thinking. To battle the fear, ignorance, and superstition. Out of this era brought us speculatives. The teaches though are too old to date but the organization of our teachings are dated to the 15/1600s (opinion only). I'm open to other possibilities but I tend to favor reason over heart. It would be pretty cool though if I'm completely wrong.


Jeff
 
Willys

Willys

Premium Member
There has been an edit function and I have used it. Seems as though some couple or few months ago there was a forum application problem, which was resolved same day. However, the edit function was no longer available.
 
B

Brother JC

Moderating Staff
Staff Member
I tap any of these posts, or the "three dots" in the upper right, and edit comes up as a choice. This isn't to say everyone has that option...
 
B

Brother JC

Moderating Staff
Staff Member
pointwithinacircle2 said:
The time frame for Speculative Freemasonry runs from 1717 to the present.
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A bit of nit-picking, but three lodges founded a Grand Lodge in 1717, so obviously Speculative Freemasonry was alive and well prior to that date. Numerous lodge records support this fact.
When was morality first taught by metaphor? When did introspection for the purpose of personal betterment first occur? When did people first gather together with the explicit purpose of making the world a better place?
 
BryanMaloney

BryanMaloney

Premium Member
When and where did people first have a government? Does that mean the USA began then and there. And if the USA, why not ISIS? And if we consider such a "beginning" to define identity, does that mean USA = ISIS?
 
Warrior1256

Warrior1256

Site Benefactor
crono782 said:
IMO I think it is more oft than not the other way around. That is, masonry borrowed ideas from other mystery schools (or were perhaps" infiltrated" by members of other schools and ideas were assimilated) rather than masonry being of such ancient origin. But that's just me.


Sent From My Freemasonry Pro App
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I believe this also. When Masonry as we know it was established is obviously a hot button issue but I do believe it was influenced by the ancient mysteries. JMO.
 
crono782

crono782

Premium Member
BryanMaloney said:
Influenced? I'd say that Freemasonry followed various ancient mysteries into dark alleys, bashed them on their heads, and then went through their pockets for anything that looked interesting.
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I dig the analogy. Still, if that were the case, do we really believe that the Operatives (or the pre-Speculatives if you will) came up with their own philosophy, realized it was lacking, then co-opted and assimilated previous doctrines to shore up their own? Seems like Occam's Razor would apply here in that (pre) Speculatives perhaps were already well-versed in the Egyptian Mysteries and birthed Freemasonry's philosophy from there. I guess it's a bit the same really, just semantically different...
 
BryanMaloney

BryanMaloney

Premium Member
crono782 said:
I dig the analogy. Still, if that were the case, do we really believe that the Operatives (or the pre-Speculatives if you will) came up with their own philosophy, realized it was lacking, then co-opted and assimilated previous doctrines to shore up their own? Seems like Occam's Razor would apply here in that (pre) Speculatives perhaps were already well-versed in the Egyptian Mysteries and birthed Freemasonry's philosophy from there. I guess it's a bit the same really, just semantically different...
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Why not believe that the Operatives were sensible enough to recognize deficiencies? However, the Operatives did not add the majority of ritual or mythology. That stuff was bolted on in the Speculative era, with lots of unverifiable claims of more ancient uses. As for invoking Occam's razor, later adoption is a far simpler explanation than some elaborate fairy tale of ancient lineages that managed to escape any and all notice until they were magically revealed in the 18th and 19th centuries.
 
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