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Albert Pike

Dontrell Stroman

Premium Member
The oath isn't taken to anyone, black, white, or purple. It's taken to God. Pike is talking about who he received his oath FROM. Big difference.
I read Pike's quote as saying he didn't want to seek admission or appear subservient to a black man. Obviously a racist opinion in modern times, but almost universally accepted in those times.
Wrong ! Not universally accepted because that would mean everyone agrees with that kind of unorthodox thinking. Again, there has always been people that did not agree nor conform to these primitive ideologies. So your calling the GAOTU a bigot. Please explain . The GAOUT didn't give me a obligation that went along these lines."the day I have accept negros as brothers, or leave masonry I will leave masonry"
 
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hanzosbm

Premium Member
Wrong ! Not universally accepted because that would mean everyone agrees with that kind of unorthodox thinking. Again, there has always been people that did not agree nor conform to these primitive ideologies. So your calling the GAOTU a bigot. Please explain . The GAOUT didn't give me a obligation that went along these lines."the day I have accept negros as brothers, or leave masonry I will leave masonry"
It is clear that you have misunderstood what I said. Allow me to try to clarify.

As I said, "almost universally accepted in those times". We're not talking about equal rights here, we're talking about the view that whites and blacks were complete equals. That notion at that time was almost unheard of.
Now, where in the world did you get any kind of idea that I was saying that the GAOTU was a bigot? I said nothing even coming close to that remark. And the GAOTU never gave you any kind of obligation of any kind, racist or otherwise. Men did. The obligation comes from men and is taken to the GAOTU. If you're going to get mad at the ideas of a dead man, at least understand what ideas you're getting mad about.
 

Joseph Thornton

Registered User
To answer Traveling man, I am not a mason at all. I want to be. So therefore I have not taken a Masonic oath. I look forward to that honor.

hanzo makes a new valid point that your oath isn't to "anyone" at all. But to God.

Trying to restate what I asked. For that time period, why would Pike or anyone anywhere in the world swear an oath to a black man? It just wasn't done. Not even the great leaders that we think of as emancipators, abolishionists, or the greatest icons of ethnic rights, still did not practice what they preached on THAT level. So the whole statement seems puzzling to me.

As for me? If I were a deputy swearing an oath to follow the orders of a black Sheriff I'd have no problem in that sense swearing my oath "to a black man". As I said before I love all people. But I don't see Pike or anyone of THAT time period swearing an oath to a black sheriff. I was baptized in the US Army by a black chaplin. I have high regard of that memory. If a black mason were to lead me in a masonic oath or ritual, again it would be an honor. But no more or less honorable if the brother was white, Asian, native American ect ect.

So in my mind for Pike to say he didn't swear to a "negro" seems redundant. No one did right? (except other PH masons)
 
R

Ressam

Guest
Honorable Gentlemen! Especially the ones who's workin' on "additional degrees"! If there's any, on the forum.
I've got a question.
There's a motto written on the "Moral&Dogma" -- it says "Ordo ab chao".
Could you, please, explain -- what is "chaos" in Freemasonry?
What does that motto mean?
Thank you!
 

Companion Joe

Premium Member
I don't know that the chao (chaos) is specifically meant within Freemasonry. I think it means literally the chaos of the world around us. I'm not even in the Scottish Rite, but I am a high school teacher, and my students know full well what it means when I say, "Ordo ab chao!"
 

MarkR

Premium Member
I took it as a reference to the Scottish Rite taking control of the proliferation of "hautes grades" degrees, putting them in order and giving them more philosophical significance, as well as putting order to the process of conferring the degrees, taking it away from the traveling degree salesmen who were common at the time.
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
There's a motto written on the "Moral&Dogma" -- it says "Ordo ab chao".
Could you, please, explain -- what is "chaos" in Freemasonry?
What does that motto mean?

On the surface it is a reference to the act of creation as described in the beginning of Genesis "And the earth was without form and void".

As with any good symbol it has layer after layer of symbolic meaning. Study to transform ignorance to knowledge, superstition to wisdom. The continuous progress of society from wilderness to future better civilizations. The assembly of degree material into the Scottish Rite system. and so on with many meanings.

My degree is from Excelsior College. The word Excelsior is Latin for ever upward. Very similar range of meanings.
 
R

Ressam

Guest
On the surface it is a reference to the act of creation as described in the beginning of Genesis "And the earth was without form and void".

As with any good symbol it has layer after layer of symbolic meaning. Study to transform ignorance to knowledge, superstition to wisdom. The continuous progress of society from wilderness to future better civilizations. The assembly of degree material into the Scottish Rite system. and so on with many meanings.

My degree is from Excelsior College. The word Excelsior is Latin for ever upward. Very similar range of meanings.

Mr.Doug, thanks for your answer!!!
Could you, please, also give "definitions" of these 2 words: "chao&ordo"?
Thanks again.
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
Could you, please, also give "definitions" of these 2 words: "chao&ordo"?

Those are Latin words for chaos and order. Rather than learning details of how the Latin is not the same as the modern English I go with the modern English meanings, though not the scientific meanings of entropy and crystal.
 
R

Ressam

Guest
Those are Latin words for chaos and order. Rather than learning details of how the Latin is not the same as the modern English I go with the modern English meanings, though not the scientific meanings of entropy and crystal.
Can you explain these words in modern English, please?
I just wanted to understand. What is "chaos" & what is "order"...
 

hanzosbm

Premium Member
Can you explain these words in modern English, please?
I just wanted to understand. What is "chaos" & what is "order"...

cha·os
ˈkāˌäs/disorder, disarray, disorganization, confusion, mayhem, bedlam, pandemonium, havoc, turmoil, tumult, commotion, disruption, upheaval, uproar, maelstrom;More
muddle, mess, shambles, free-for-all;
anarchy, lawlessness, entropy;
informalhullabaloo, hoopla, train wreck, all hell broken loose
"police were called in to quell the chaos"
antonyms: order
  • Physics
    behavior so unpredictable as to appear random, owing to great sensitivity to small changes in conditions.
  • the formless matter supposed to have existed before the creation of the universe.
or·der
ˈôrdər/sequence, arrangement, organization, disposition, system, series, succession;More
grouping, classification, categorization, codification, systematization
"alphabetical order"
  • a state in which everything is in its correct or appropriate place.
    "she tried to put her shattered thoughts into some semblance of order"
    synonyms: tidiness, neatness, orderliness, organization, method, system;More
    symmetry, uniformity, regularity;
    routine
    "his tidy desk demonstrates his sense of order"
    antonyms: chaos, disarray
  • a state in which the laws and rules regulating the public behavior of members of a community are observed and authority is obeyed.
    "the army was deployed to keep order"
    synonyms: peace, control, law (and order), lawfulness, discipline, calm, (peace and) quiet, peacefulness, peaceableness
    "the police were needed to keep order"
  • the overall state or condition of something.
    "the house had just been vacated and was in good order"
    synonyms: condition, state, repair, shape
    "the equipment was in good order"
  • a particular social, political, or economic system.
    "if only the peasantry would rise up against the established order"
    synonyms: (class) system, hierarchy, pecking order, grading, ranking, scale
    "the established social order"
  • the prescribed or established procedure followed by a meeting, legislative assembly, debate, or court of law.
    "the meeting was called to order"
  • a stated form of liturgical service, or of administration of a rite or ceremony, prescribed by ecclesiastical authority.
2.
an authoritative command, direction, or instruction.
"he was not going to take orders from a mere administrator"
synonyms: command, instruction, directive, direction, decree, edict, injunction, mandate, dictate, commandment, rescript;More
law, rule, regulation, diktat;
demand, bidding, requirement, stipulation;
informalsay-so;
formalordinance;
literarybehest
"I had to obey her orders"
antonyms: suggestion
  • an oral or written request for something to be made, supplied, or served.
    "the company has won an order for six tankers"
    synonyms: commission, contract, purchase order, request, requisition;More
    booking, reservation
    "the company has won the order"
    antonyms: chaos
  • a thing made, supplied, or served as a result of an oral or written request.
    "orders will be delivered the next business day"
  • a written direction of a court or judge.
    "a judge's order forbidding the reporting of evidence"
  • a written direction to pay money or deliver property.
3.
a social class.
"the upper social orders"
synonyms: class, level, rank, grade, degree, position, category;
datedstation
"the lower orders of society"
  • Biology
    a principal taxonomic category that ranks below class and above family.
    synonyms: taxonomic group, class, family, species, breed;
    taxon
    "the higher orders of insects"
  • a grade or rank in the Christian ministry, especially that of bishop, priest, or deacon.
  • the rank or position of a member of the clergy or an ordained minister of a church.
    "he took priest's orders"
  • Theology
    any of the nine grades of angelic beings in the celestial hierarchy.
4.
a society of monks, priests, nuns, etc., living according to certain religious and social regulations and discipline and at least some of whose members take solemn vows.
"the Franciscan Order"
synonyms: community, brotherhood, sisterhood, organization, association, society, fellowship, fraternity, confraternity, congregation, sodality, lodge, guild, league, union, club;
sect
"a religious order"
5.
used to describe the quality, nature, or importance of something.
"with musical talent of this order, von Karajan would have been a phenomenon in any age"
synonyms: type, kind, sort, nature, variety;More
quality, caliber, standard
"skills of a very high order"
6.
any of the five classical styles of architecture (Doric, Ionic, Corinthian, Tuscan, and Composite) based on the proportions of columns, amount of decoration, etc.
  • any style or mode of architecture subject to uniform established proportions.
7.
Military
equipment or uniform for a specified purpose or of a specified type.
"drill order"
  • the position in which a rifle is held after ordering arms.
    noun: the order
8.
Mathematics
the degree of complexity of an equation, expression, etc., as denoted by an ordinal number.
  • the number of differentiations required to reach the highest derivative in a differential equation.
  • the number of elements in a finite group.
  • the number of rows or columns in a square matrix.
verb
verb: order; 3rd person present: orders; past tense: ordered; past participle: ordered; gerund or present participle: ordering
1
.
give an authoritative direction or instruction to do something.
"she ordered me to leave"
synonyms: instruct, command, direct, enjoin, tell, require, charge;More
formaladjure;
literarybid
"he ordered me to return"
decree, ordain, rule, legislate, dictate, prescribe
"the judge ordered that their assets be confiscated"
  • continually tell someone in an overbearing way what to do.
    synonyms: tell what to do, give orders to, dictate to;More
    lay down the law to;
    informalboss around, push around
    "what makes him think he can just waltz in and start ordering us about?"
  • North American
    command (something) to be done or (someone) to be treated in a particular way.
    "he ordered the anchor dropped"
2.
request (something) to be made, supplied, or served.
"my friend ordered the tickets last week"
synonyms: request, apply for, place an order for;More
book, reserve, preorder;
formalbespeak
"you can order your tickets by phone"
3.
arrange (something) in a methodical or appropriate way.
 
R

Ressam

Guest
cha·os
ˈkāˌäs/disorder, disarray, disorganization, confusion, mayhem, bedlam, pandemonium, havoc, turmoil, tumult, commotion, disruption, upheaval, uproar, maelstrom;More
muddle, mess, shambles, free-for-all;
anarchy, lawlessness, entropy;
informalhullabaloo, hoopla, train wreck, all hell broken loose
"police were called in to quell the chaos"
antonyms: order
  • Physics
    behavior so unpredictable as to appear random, owing to great sensitivity to small changes in conditions.
  • the formless matter supposed to have existed before the creation of the universe.
or·der
ˈôrdər/sequence, arrangement, organization, disposition, system, series, succession;More
grouping, classification, categorization, codification, systematization
"alphabetical order"
  • a state in which everything is in its correct or appropriate place.
    "she tried to put her shattered thoughts into some semblance of order"
    synonyms: tidiness, neatness, orderliness, organization, method, system;More
    symmetry, uniformity, regularity;
    routine
    "his tidy desk demonstrates his sense of order"
    antonyms: chaos, disarray
  • a state in which the laws and rules regulating the public behavior of members of a community are observed and authority is obeyed.
    "the army was deployed to keep order"
    synonyms: peace, control, law (and order), lawfulness, discipline, calm, (peace and) quiet, peacefulness, peaceableness
    "the police were needed to keep order"
  • the overall state or condition of something.
    "the house had just been vacated and was in good order"
    synonyms: condition, state, repair, shape
    "the equipment was in good order"
  • a particular social, political, or economic system.
    "if only the peasantry would rise up against the established order"
    synonyms: (class) system, hierarchy, pecking order, grading, ranking, scale
    "the established social order"
  • the prescribed or established procedure followed by a meeting, legislative assembly, debate, or court of law.
    "the meeting was called to order"
  • a stated form of liturgical service, or of administration of a rite or ceremony, prescribed by ecclesiastical authority.
2.
an authoritative command, direction, or instruction.
"he was not going to take orders from a mere administrator"
synonyms: command, instruction, directive, direction, decree, edict, injunction, mandate, dictate, commandment, rescript;More
law, rule, regulation, diktat;
demand, bidding, requirement, stipulation;
informalsay-so;
formalordinance;
literarybehest
"I had to obey her orders"
antonyms: suggestion
  • an oral or written request for something to be made, supplied, or served.
    "the company has won an order for six tankers"
    synonyms: commission, contract, purchase order, request, requisition;More
    booking, reservation
    "the company has won the order"
    antonyms: chaos
  • a thing made, supplied, or served as a result of an oral or written request.
    "orders will be delivered the next business day"
  • a written direction of a court or judge.
    "a judge's order forbidding the reporting of evidence"
  • a written direction to pay money or deliver property.
3.
a social class.
"the upper social orders"
synonyms: class, level, rank, grade, degree, position, category;
datedstation
"the lower orders of society"
  • Biology
    a principal taxonomic category that ranks below class and above family.
    synonyms: taxonomic group, class, family, species, breed;
    taxon
    "the higher orders of insects"
  • a grade or rank in the Christian ministry, especially that of bishop, priest, or deacon.
  • the rank or position of a member of the clergy or an ordained minister of a church.
    "he took priest's orders"
  • Theology
    any of the nine grades of angelic beings in the celestial hierarchy.
4.
a society of monks, priests, nuns, etc., living according to certain religious and social regulations and discipline and at least some of whose members take solemn vows.
"the Franciscan Order"
synonyms: community, brotherhood, sisterhood, organization, association, society, fellowship, fraternity, confraternity, congregation, sodality, lodge, guild, league, union, club;
sect
"a religious order"
5.
used to describe the quality, nature, or importance of something.
"with musical talent of this order, von Karajan would have been a phenomenon in any age"
synonyms: type, kind, sort, nature, variety;More
quality, caliber, standard
"skills of a very high order"
6.
any of the five classical styles of architecture (Doric, Ionic, Corinthian, Tuscan, and Composite) based on the proportions of columns, amount of decoration, etc.
  • any style or mode of architecture subject to uniform established proportions.
7.
Military
equipment or uniform for a specified purpose or of a specified type.
"drill order"
  • the position in which a rifle is held after ordering arms.
    noun: the order
8.
Mathematics
the degree of complexity of an equation, expression, etc., as denoted by an ordinal number.
  • the number of differentiations required to reach the highest derivative in a differential equation.
  • the number of elements in a finite group.
  • the number of rows or columns in a square matrix.
verb
verb: order; 3rd person present: orders; past tense: ordered; past participle: ordered; gerund or present participle: ordering
1
.
give an authoritative direction or instruction to do something.
"she ordered me to leave"
synonyms: instruct, command, direct, enjoin, tell, require, charge;More
formaladjure;
literarybid
"he ordered me to return"
decree, ordain, rule, legislate, dictate, prescribe
"the judge ordered that their assets be confiscated"
  • continually tell someone in an overbearing way what to do.
    synonyms: tell what to do, give orders to, dictate to;More
    lay down the law to;
    informalboss around, push around
    "what makes him think he can just waltz in and start ordering us about?"
  • North American
    command (something) to be done or (someone) to be treated in a particular way.
    "he ordered the anchor dropped"
2.
request (something) to be made, supplied, or served.
"my friend ordered the tickets last week"
synonyms: request, apply for, place an order for;More
book, reserve, preorder;
formalbespeak
"you can order your tickets by phone"
3.
arrange (something) in a methodical or appropriate way.

Thanks, Sir.
Probably, I've understand.
Anyone can explain these words as he wishes, as he undersyands. OK!
P.S. I can explain!(Why I asked this questions about "definitions").
From my, non-masonic, profaneous point of view, when I, of course, may be mistaken(!), the motto should be quite opposite!
"Chao ab ordo"! Cause, IMHO, there's The Order everywhere in The Universe. And on The Earth, of course, also!
The Harmony! The Law! The Reality!
And, furtherly, We, The Humans, Homo Sapiens, sometimes/often(may be we don't wanna do it, but), make Chaos, by our behaviour.
And, then, by the "instruments", such a Wars or Disasters -- we again bein' put into The Order.

Thanks again for your answers!
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
From my, non-masonic, profaneous point of view, when I, of course, may be mistaken(!), the motto should be quite opposite!
"Chao ab ordo"! Cause, IMHO, there's The Order everywhere in The Universe. And on The Earth, of course, also!

In science order is free energy that can potentially be spent. Chaos is entropy which is energy that has been spent and converted to waste heat. In science chaos forever expands as far as the entire universe is concerned. So yes "chaos from order" is a phrasing of the second law of thermodynamics. Here's a good short tutorial on the topic -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics

Life is a local increase in order that generates a global increase in entropy. Orderly life consumes fuel, burns that fuel and releases the energy as waste heat. it seems a contradiction but the total increase of waste heat is faster than it would be in a system without life.

This happens on many scales. Civilization has cities of neatly ordered buildings made of neatly ordered materials so civilization has more local order than wilderness. Yet civilization has nuclear power plants that burn up uranium vastly faster than nature, coal plants that release energy and so on down our long list of energy sources.

Life emerges from non-life in the building act of creation. This is order from chaos. It's also local. Civilization emerges from wilderness in the building act of construction (both literal and moral, both operative and speculative). This is order from chaos. It's scale of locality is larger. But in every case, entropy increases for the entire universe.

The idea that humans produce order from chaos is an important one no matter the second law of thermodynamics.
 
R

Ressam

Guest
Life emerges from non-life in the building act of creation. This is order from chaos. It's also local. Civilization emerges from wilderness in the building act of construction (both literal and moral, both operative and speculative). This is order from chaos.

Thanks for you Your answer, Mr.Doug!
But, IMHO -- "non-life" & "wilderness" can also be within The Order.
 

AndreAshlar

Registered User
I've often wonder why so many freemasons praise Albert Pike. I understand he is responsible for a lot of the education on the Scottish Rite, but how could a man who writes a book Morals and Dogma and I quote from his book " I took my obligations from white men, not from negroes. When I have to accept negroes as brothers or leave masonry, I shall leave it" be praised as a righteous man. I also wonder if that's why there is so much confusion within our craft. Are freemasons today still only taking their obligation to a certain race. I took my obligation to all worthy master mason. If Freemasonry teaches that all masons meet on the "Level" then why would a man that makes a statement off the Level be glorified.
Freemasonry is a microcosm of society when it comes to race. Despite what we profess to stand for, we lack the compassion due to a brother when confronted with racism and it's impact on our past, present and future. We are not comfortable in this arena.
 

Dontrell Stroman

Premium Member
Freemasonry is a microcosm of society when it comes to race. Despite what we profess to stand for, we lack the compassion due to a brother when confronted with racism and it's impact on our past, present and future. We are not comfortable in this arena.
Very well said
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
But, IMHO -- "non-life" & "wilderness" can also be within The Order.

Correct. More science -

When a liquid condenses into a solid, waste heat is released thus increasing the local order and also increasing the total entropy of the universe. When a solid melts into a liquid, that exact same amount of heat is absorbed but the entropy in the liquid is higher than it was in the solid. The heat had to come from somewhere and it can't come from the heat lost at condensation because that heat was lost. These are called the heat of fusion no matter the direction of the flow.

When a gas condenses into a liquid, waste heat is released thus increasing the local order and also increasing the total entropy of the universe. When a liquid evaporates into a gas, the exact same amount of heat is absorbed but the entropy in the gas is higher than it was in the liquid. The heat had to come from somewhere and it can't come from the heat lost at evaporation because that heat was lost. These are called heat of vaporization no matter the direction of the flow.

The science of thermodynamics didn't exist yet when our degrees where written. On a human scale, though, what we see is the increased order. What we see is order from chaos. It takes instruments to discover that there is a net chaos from order happening in the form of waste heat. Humans don't think in terms of waste heat. Waste heat is not poetic or philosophical. Waste heat is a matter of mundane book keeping.
 
R

Ressam

Guest
The science of thermodynamics didn't exist yet when our degrees where written. On a human scale, though, what we see is the increased order. What we see is order from chaos. It takes instruments to discover that there is a net chaos from order happening in the form of waste heat. Humans don't think in terms of waste heat. Waste heat is not poetic or philosophical. Waste heat is a matter of mundane book keeping.

Thanks for Your answer, Mr. Doug! :)
Probably, you all are right. I'm not arguin'. I just want to understand! The Freemasonry. :)
Pike's book was published in 1872, and Industrial Revolution, probably, was happenin' at he same time, approx. 1760-1840.
So, Pike, maybe've known about Thermodynamics. :)
But, IMHO, of course, maybe I'm mistaken, but this motto "Ordo Ab Chao" is applicable to Social Science not to Natural Science.
I mean -- Chaos is existin' -- between Human Relations, Behaviour. Not in Nature.
I just wonder about one thing. Why Pike was was so pessimistic? :)
As I've understand from his Book -- he was very clever man! With such encyclopaedic mind.
Of course(!), I think, he'd known that basic Words from Matthew:22-37-40 --(IMHO, this is The Core/Heart/Kernel of Perfect Teaching,
this is The Essence of Being!):

[37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.]

But, I think, I probably understand Pike's pessimism.
At that that there was an American Civil War, if I'm not mistaken, of course -- it was hard to obey this Love Philosophy.

So, Mr.Doug, we are lucky, I think, that we are living in such a Wonderful Times peaceful times(relatively)! :)
Lets pray for that -- World War 3 will not happen!
Let's pray for that -- Global Natural Disaster will not happen!
IMO, if everyone on The Earth will truly pray for that -- everythin' will be allright.
 

Mel Knight

Registered User
Yes I'm black & I haven't read much of Alberts work but I will say this, I've read some of Crowley's work, hitler etc. I try not to judge that person and just focus on knowledge and wisdom. I may fully disagree with their choices of how one may have lived his/her life but knowledge and wisdom come in all shapes and forms. Does it matter if Albert was racist or not? Does he speak for all? I would say no
 
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