Born again Sinners...

Discussion in 'Philosophy, Religion and Spirituality' started by Blake Bowden, Jan 2, 2010.

  1. Blake Bowden

    Blake Bowden Administrator Staff Member

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    Great insight JTM.
     
  2. owls84

    owls84 Moderator Premium Member

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    The original question was,
    I think it was intended to ask, if a man lives a sinful life only to repent seconds before his death does he go to heaven but the Hitler example may be a bad one. Hitler did take his own life which is a sin according to the scripture. There for he could not repent after committing sin. I have been thinking about this and low and behold went to my place of light and found this in Ezekiel 18 (NIV).



    This explains it. God does not work by the same rules that we hold. He does not judge, he does not hold grudges. He is greater than we could ever be. He could overlook all of mans faults as long as you ask for forgivness and truly mean it within your heart it does not matter the sin or the crime as long as you are sincere in your heart.
     
  3. Bill Lins

    Bill Lins Moderating Staff Staff Member

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    I think JTM's 2282 (2) & 2283 answer that sufficiently.
     
  4. jonesvilletexas

    jonesvilletexas Premium Member

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    Question! Can you know what is in the heart of man at any given time? If you say yes then you’re setting yourself up as G_d are you not? Only G_d can truly know the heart of man.

    As to suicide show me in the word of G_d, New Testament (KJV) if a man commits suicide he will not inter the Kingdome of heaven. As a Christian I believe that when a man truly trust G_d as his Lord and master his eternity is secure, with no time limits on his actions, this does not say G_d would not be pleased to him committing suicide.
     
  5. jonesvilletexas

    jonesvilletexas Premium Member

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    Oh I thought that the name of this forum was Masons of Texas!
     
  6. Blake Bowden

    Blake Bowden Administrator Staff Member

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    Do you think Judas made it into Heaven? I don't mean to put you on the spot, just asking one of many "humm..well" questions rattling around in my noggin. :6:
     
  7. jonesvilletexas

    jonesvilletexas Premium Member

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    The Bible clearly indicates that Judas was not saved. Jesus Himself said of Judas, “The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born” (Matthew 26:24). Here is a clear picture of the sovereignty of God and the will of man working together. God had, from ages past, determined that Christ would be betrayed by Judas, die on the cross for our sins, and be resurrected. This is what Jesus meant when He said He would “go just as it is written about him.” Nothing would stop the plan of God to provide salvation for mankind.
     
  8. jonesvilletexas

    jonesvilletexas Premium Member

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    The Bible mentions six specific people who committed suicide: Abimelech (Judges 9:54), Saul (1 Samuel 31:4), Saul's armor-bearer (1 Samuel 31:4-6), Ahithophel (2 Samuel 17:23), Zimri (1 Kings 16:18), and Judas (Matthew 27:5). Five of them were wicked, sinful men (not enough is said regarding Saul's armor-bearer to make a judgment as to his character). Some consider Samson an instance of suicide (Judges 16:26-31), but Samson's goal was to kill the Philistines, not himself. The Bible views suicide as equal to murder, which is what it is—self-murder. God is the only one who is to decide when and how a person should die.

    According to the Bible, suicide is not what determines whether a person gains entrance into heaven. If an unsaved person commits suicide, he has done nothing but “expedite” his journey to hell. However, that person who committed suicide will ultimately be in hell for rejecting salvation through Christ, not because he committed suicide. What does the Bible say about a Christian who commits suicide? The Bible teaches that from the moment we truly believe in Christ, we are guaranteed eternal life (John 3:16). According to the Bible, Christians can know beyond any doubt that they possess eternal life (1 John 5:13). Nothing can separate a Christian from God’s love (Romans 8:38-39). If no “created thing” can separate a Christian from God’s love, and even a Christian who commits suicide is a “created thing,” then not even suicide can separate a Christian from God’s love. Jesus died for all of our sins, and if a true Christian, in a time of spiritual attack and weakness, commits suicide, that would still be a sin covered by the blood of Christ.

    Suicide is still a serious sin against God. According to the Bible, suicide is murder; it is always wrong. Serious doubts should be raised about the genuineness of faith of anyone who claimed to be a Christian yet committed suicide. There is no circumstance that can justify someone, especially a Christian, taking his/her own life. Christians are called to live their lives for God, and the decision on when to die is God’s and God’s alone. Although it is not describing suicide, 1 Corinthians 3:15 is probably a good description of what happens to a Christian who commits suicide: “He himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.”
     
  9. RedTemplar

    RedTemplar Johnny Joe Combs Premium Member

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    For Whosoever shall call on the Name of the Lord shall be saved. Romans 10:13

    Not everyone who cries Lord, Lord shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Mathew 7:21

    This should make it clear as mud.
     
  10. jonesvilletexas

    jonesvilletexas Premium Member

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    Originally Posted by Bill_Lins77488
    I have always questioned why someone who "accepts" Christ on his deathbed after living a life of sin should get the same reward as someone who has lived a pure & righteous life, but that's probably one of those things I wasn't meant to know. I figure I've got all I can handle just keeping myself straight! As always, YMMV.

    Brother Bill the following might help.


    Mat 20:1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
    Mat 20:2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
    Mat 20:3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
    Mat 20:4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
    Mat 20:5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
    Mat 20:6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
    Mat 20:7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
    Mat 20:8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
    Mat 20:9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
    Mat 20:10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
    Mat 20:11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
    Mat 20:12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
    Mat 20:13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
    Mat 20:14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
    Mat 20:15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
     
  11. Nate Riley

    Nate Riley Premium Member

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    Judas Iscariot is any interesting character to study. For those interested, I recommend a book call Twelve Ordinary Men by John MacArthur about the disciples/apostles. He does a great job of pulling the story together on each of them.

    Like Bro. Jones said, Iscariot appears to have been brought into Christ's inner circle for the purpose he fulfilled (that's the Lord's method). He never really fit in with the others and they at least one of them considered him "a liar and a thief".

    Some will try to compare him with Simon Peter during the "Passion". While there actions were both detestable, Peter was truly repentant. Judas was just sorry for what he had done, gave the money back, then committed suicide.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2010
  12. Blake Bowden

    Blake Bowden Administrator Staff Member

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    Thank you for the book recommendation. It sounds like a good read.
     
  13. jonesvilletexas

    jonesvilletexas Premium Member

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    Brother Nate, I have the book and look at it often. Thanks
     
  14. JTM

    JTM "Just in case" Premium Member

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    How does this mean he wasn't saved?

    i'm starting to like my catholic church's view on this much more:

    2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives
     
  15. jonesvilletexas

    jonesvilletexas Premium Member

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    Mat 26:21-24 -
    As they did eat ... - The account contained in these verses is also recorded in Mar_14:18-21; Luk_22:21-23; Joh_13:21-22. John says that before Jesus declared that one of them should betray him, “he was troubled in spirit, and testified;” that is, he “felt deeply” in view of the greatness of the crime that Judas was about to commit, and the sufferings that he was to endure, and “testified,” or gave utterance to his inward feelings of sorrow.
    Mat_26:22
    They were exceeding sorrowful - John says Joh_13:22 “they looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake” - that is, they anxiously looked one at another, conscious each one, except Judas, of no such intention, and each one beginning to examine himself to find whether he was the person intended.
    This showed their innocence, and their attachment to Jesus. It showed how sensitive they were to the least suspicion of the kind. It showed that they were willing to know themselves, thus evincing the spirit of the true Christian. Judas only was silent, and was the last to make the inquiry, and that after he had been plainly pointed out Mat_26:25, thus showing:
    1. that guilt is slow to suspect itself;
    2. that it shrinks from the light;
    3. that it was his purpose to conceal his intention; and,
    4. that nothing but the consciousness that his Lord knew his design could induce him to make inquiry.
    The guilty would, if possible, always conceal their crimes. The innocent are ready to suspect that they may have done wrong. Their feelings are tender, and they inquire with solicitude whether there may not be something in their bosoms, unknown to themselves, that may be a departure from right feeling.
    Mat_26:23
    He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish - The Jews, at the observance of this ordinance, used a bitter sauce, made of bunches of raisins, mixed with vinegar and other seasoning of the like kind, which they said represented the clay which their fathers were compelled to use in Egypt in making brick, thus reminding them of their bitter bondage there.
    This was probably the dish to which reference is made here. It is not improbable that Judas reclined near to our Saviour at the feast, and by his saying it was one that dipped “with him” in the dish, he meant one that was near to him, designating him more particularly than he had done before. John adds (Joh_13:23-30; see the notes at that place), that “there was leaning on Jesus’ bosom one of his disciples whom Jesus loved” - referring to himself; that Simon Peter beckoned to him to ask Jesus more particularly who it was; that Jesus signified who it was by giving “Judas a sop” - that is, a piece of “bread” or “meat” dipped in the thick sauce; and that Judas, having received it, went out to accomplish his wicked design of betraying him. Judas was not, therefore, present at the institution of the Lord’s Supper.
    Mat_26:24
    The Son of man, goeth - That is, the Messiah - the Christ. See the notes at Mat_8:20.
    Goeth - Dies, or will die. The Hebrews often spoke in this manner of death, Psa_39:13; Gen_15:2.
    As it is written of him - That is, as it is “written” or prophesied of him in the Old Testament. Compare Psa_41:9 with Joh_13:18. See also Dan_9:26-27; Isa_53:4-9. Luke Luk_22:22 says, “as it was determined.” In the Greek, as it was “marked out by a boundary” - that is, in the divine purpose. It was the previous intention of God to give him up to die for sin, or it could not have been certainly predicted. It is also declared to have been by his “determinate counsel and foreknowledge.” See the notes at Act_2:23.
    Woe unto that man ... - The crime is great and awful, and he will be punished accordingly. He states the greatness of his misery or “woe” in the phrase following.
    It had been good ... - That is, it would have been better for him if he had not been born; or it would be better now for him if he was to be as “if” he had not been born, or if he was annihilated. This was a proverbial mode of speaking among the Jews in frequent use. In relation to Judas, it proves the following things:
    1. that the crime which he was about to commit was exceedingly great;
    2. that the misery or punishment due to it would certainly come upon him;
    3. that he would certainly deserve that misery, or it would not have been threatened or inflicted; and,
    4. that his punishment would be eternal.
    If there should be any period when the sufferings of Judas should end, and he be restored and raised to heaven, the blessings of that “happiness without end” would infinitely overbalance all the sufferings he could endure in a limited time, and consequently it would not be true that it would have been better for him not to have been born. Existence, to him, would, on the whole, be an infinite blessing. This passage proves further that, in relation to one wicked man, the sufferings of hell will be eternal. If of one, then it is equally certain and proper that all the wicked will perish forever.
    If it be asked how this crime of Judas could be so great, or could be a crime at all, when it was determined beforehand that the Saviour should be betrayed and die in this manner, it may be answered:
    1. That the crime was what it was “in itself,” apart from any determination of God. It was a violation of all the duties he owed to God and to the Lord Jesus - awful ingratitude, detestable covetousness, and most base treachery. As such it deserved to be punished.
    2. The previous purpose of God did not force Judas to do this. In it he acted freely. He did just what his wicked heart prompted him to do.
    3. A previous knowledge of a thing, or a previous purpose to permit a thing, does not alter its “nature,” or cause it to be a different thing from what it is.
    4. God, who is the best judge of the nature of crime, holds all that was done in crucifying the Saviour, though it was by his determinate counsel and foreknowledge, “to be by wicked hands,” Act_2:23. This punishment of Judas proves, also, that sinners cannot take shelter for their sins in the decrees of God, or plead them as an excuse. God will punish crimes for what they “are in themselves.” His own deep and inscrutable purposes in regard to human actions will not change “the nature” of those actions, or screen the sinner from the punishment which he deserves.
     
  16. Nate Riley

    Nate Riley Premium Member

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    There is also a sermon series by John MacArthur that is very similar to the books. Here is a link: http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermon+Series/79
     

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