Grand Lodge of Alabama and PH Grand Lodge of Alabama

Discussion in 'General Freemasonry Discussion' started by goomba, Nov 14, 2017.

  1. goomba

    goomba Neo-Antient Site Benefactor

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    23550400_10155954308629866_5171577762493251622_o (2).jpg I don't know all the details but today the Grand Lodge of Alabama and the Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Alabama officially recognize each other. However, at this time there is no visitation between the grand jurisdictions or their members. As a former Mason of the Grand Lodge of Alabama this is great news. I heard the vote wasn't even close and the estimate was around 90% in favor.
     
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  2. MarkR

    MarkR Premium Member

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    I just don't understand the concept of "recognition without visitation." What is the point of that? Has that ever been done between a U.S. Grand Lodge and a Grand Lodge of any country? If you can't sit in lodge with each other, are you really recognized?
     
  3. goomba

    goomba Neo-Antient Site Benefactor

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    It was said the PH GM insisted on this provision. My gut tells me it's the method they use to calm the objections of some closed minded Masons.

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  4. Mosaic

    Mosaic Registered User

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    There are a lot of people on both sides that are not pleased with this outcome. You'd have to live here to fully understand why it was approached this way.

    Alabama still has Master Masons who were very much alive and well in the 40s, 50s and 60s. Allowing intervisitation from day 1 would likely cause too much confusion in the temple.

    As I understand, both GLs did this with the understanding that visitation would be a future goal.

    "Wait with patience..."
     
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  5. CLewey44

    CLewey44 Registered User

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    I heard about this today also. Hopefully it'll cull out any of the racists 'brethren' still hanging around.
     
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  6. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

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    Where ya'll hearing all this?
     
  7. goomba

    goomba Neo-Antient Site Benefactor

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    Various private Facebook groups and lecturers in Alabama.

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  8. Warrior1256

    Warrior1256 Site Benefactor

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    That's the way it was here in Kentucky until last year when both GLs voted to allow visitation.
    Hadn't thought of this but it makes sense.
     
  9. CLewey44

    CLewey44 Registered User

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    I done heard about it on that there internet.... lol
     
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  10. dfreybur

    dfreybur Premium Member

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    Sometimes it happens early on so the GLs can exchange lists of member lodges, then get them all published in next year's List of Lodges Masonic. I remember that happening when California recognition happened. It took a bit under two years for the paperwork exchange to happen. By then we already had a MWPHGLofCA lodge as a tenant in our building so our visit consisted of marching down the hall to the next room. Very bizarre how different issues go through at different rates. We'd gone straight to our mutual GLs when the PH lodge leased their building and wanted to be a tenant, so it went through in a few months after the recognition vote. Yet neither of us was on the other's list to visit until a slower paperwork process settled.

    One issue with making the change in a list of steps is the farther along the process you get, the more Brothers consider the issue resolved and lose interest. This leads to assorted restrictions that no one ever bothers to resolve.

    California - No cross affiliation. Apparently because MWPHGLofCA is a single affiliation jurisdiction and they asked for it. Unfortunately that detail got copied to every invitation for recognition GLofCA has sent.

    Texas. Extra form to be processed by both GrSec offices and voted on by both lodges before a member gets preapproved to visit.

    These random seeming restrictions are why I favor just plain "full and traditional" recognition without details. Any details result in a type of second class citizenship that runs in both directions. To me it's unbecoming. But if the step by step process happens, may as well celebrate at each step and keep submitting the paperwork for the next step.

    I should react to this vote - Happy dance!
     
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  11. Warrior1256

    Warrior1256 Site Benefactor

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    Agreed. At least we are making progress, slow as it may be.
     
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  12. hanzosbm

    hanzosbm Premium Member

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    Exactly. I can just imagine day one, a man shows up and says "Hi, I'd like to visit your lodge, I'm from such and such a lodge with the Prince Hall Grand Lodge, here's my dues card". Great. What do you check that against? Would you even know the difference between a valid dues card and monopoly money? I know I wouldn't.
     
  13. MWS

    MWS Registered User

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    "Exactly. I can just imagine day one, a man shows up and says "Hi, I'd like to visit your lodge, I'm from such and such a lodge with the Prince Hall Grand Lodge, here's my dues card". Great. What do you check that against? Would you even know the difference between a valid dues card and monopoly money? I know I wouldn't."

    They are still separate GL's, I'm sure the requirement would be to go up the chain through their Grand Sec. for visitation, no?
     
  14. dfreybur

    dfreybur Premium Member

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    It is often trivial to trace the chain of recognition. We're on-line, so we will have learned how to figure out real versus fake web sites by looking them up in an authoritative list first not just doing a web search. Find the exact name generally MWPHGLofSTate. Look up in UGLE's list to get to their web site. Look on their web site to find that particular lodge. This method does not work every single time but it does most of the time. This method is more reliable than looking them up in the printed List of Lodges Masonic as it's more up to date.

    Then do a belt and suspenders double check. Go to the Conference of Grand Masters Prince Hall site and look up the web site. Confirm it's the same one as in the UGLE list. By the way, this method is even more certain than the UGLE list as it lists all of the regular PHA jurisdictions that will ever have recognition. It's just easier to start at UGLE because that's where to look up every world jurisdiction as a starting point.

    Note to MWPHGLofAL - By now you Brothers have already mailed off the package requesting UGLE recognition, right? ;^)

    When it comes to dues cards, they have always been trivial to fake. It's a check on how sincere the visitor is more than it is a check on actual identity.

    Swearing the Tyler's test oath is the same. Guys can lie, but what for? To come watch us pay our bills, what a let down.
     
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  15. Brother JC

    Brother JC Vigilant Staff Member

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    GLCA posts a list of GLs it recognizes each year in the Proceedings of the Annual Communication, both foreign and domestic. It comes in handy when a visitor comes a’knocking.
     
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  16. goomba

    goomba Neo-Antient Site Benefactor

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  17. hanzosbm

    hanzosbm Premium Member

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  18. Warrior1256

    Warrior1256 Site Benefactor

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  19. Glen Cook

    Glen Cook G A Cook Site Benefactor

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    TBMK PHA OK has not requested UGLE recognition
     
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  20. dfreybur

    dfreybur Premium Member

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    It is often trivial to follow the chain of delegation. But it's not always trivial. The exceptions are rare enough that the method works nearly all the time. The double check of the Conference of Grand Masters Prince Hall handles all exceptions, including Oklahoma.

    The exceptions are interesting on their own. The MWPHGLofOK, which has local recognition by most of the US GLs, does not mention on their web site why they have chosen to not request recognition from the United Grand Lodge of England. As they sponsor lodges abroad I wonder if it's to have wider freedom in doing so. Both they and UGLE tend to charter lodge in assorted countries. If they exchanged recognition they would need to coordinate closely when doing so. That's my speculation on the topic.
     

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