Grand Lodges in Italy

Discussion in 'International Freemasonry' started by RhushidaK, May 30, 2017.

  1. Bloke

    Bloke Premium Member

    Good point bro, but I was kinda thinking about the focus being Italy (title of thread).

    That said, there is some good reasons not to recognize some GLs. But the criteria for acting that way should not be skin colour, religion or Masonic politics or dummy spits. I'd love to visit LDH.... but I would not let them into my Lodge, and I can't have it my own way. Some irregular and unrecognized GLs like LDH, OWF and HFoAF should be respected, but that does not mean they'll ever conform to our GLs standard of regularity... which is fine.

    The world does not have to be a homogeneous place, heaven forbid!

    I still find it amusing we're focusing on Italy in this broad topic, esp when you look back at "Italian" Grand Lodges, esp in the context of the Revolution and Wars of the Papal States. Issues in Italy are not just the type of P3, but predate Giuseppe Garibaldi and his GM. I've only done a bit of reading on it, but it's fascinating
    Warrior1256 and Ripcord22A like this.
  2. Warrior1256

    Warrior1256 Site Benefactor

    Again agreed.
  3. RhushidaK

    RhushidaK Registered User

    Well the focus was on Italy coz I just visited it last week and was completely lost which Grand Lodge to contact. That set other wheel in motion in my head as to their fights

    True Bro. It's a really broad topic. But the past is the past; something to study rather than keep fighting upon. Which I found in Italy. Not sure if there are other countries where such situations still exist.
    Bloke likes this.
  4. Bloke

    Bloke Premium Member

    For sure there is !
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  5. Glen Cook

    Glen Cook G A Cook Site Benefactor


    the two GLs in Paraguay.
    nine of the PHA jurisdictions in the US.
    Some would creditably suggest Bulgaria as well as GLdF/GLNF. Certainly MN was convinced of the latter.
    Some wonder why PHO and PHA don't merge, resolving legitimacy of origin issues for PHO who otherwise appear to be regular in practice.
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  6. Ripcord22A

    Ripcord22A Site Benefactor

    I dont know anything about these other then PHA and the GLNF/GLdF...but of those i dont think PHA fits what hes referring to. I dont think, and Bro Glenn you are much more versed in these situations then I so correct me if Im wrong, but the OP appears to be talking about fighting between the 2 GLs about who is more legitimate and deserves to be THE GL.
    I dont believe that to be the case with those 9 US Jurisdictions. They just dont recognize eachother at the GL level and bothsides like it that way. I dont think either side questions the others ability to exist and work. I mean I've spoken with men from those jurisdictions who say they approached one or the others lodges and was directed to the other. If they didnt believe that the other had a right to exist wouldn't they not do that and keep all the new members for themselves?

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  7. Luigi Visentin

    Luigi Visentin Registered User

    The situation in Italy is pretty complicated. A survey has found more than 80 (eighty) different associations claiming to be "masonic". Usually Freemasonry in Italy refers to three entities: the Grande Oriente d'Italia, the oldest (1805) and bigger (about 23,000 brothers), which is also my Grand Lodge, and that is not recognized by United Grand Lodge of England, which recognize the second biggest entity, the Gran Loggia Regolare d'Italia. The third is the Gran Loggia d'Italia degli ALAM, born in 1910, which however is in serious internal difficulties.
    There are some efforts to try to put together the two biggest Lodges but there is a long story of "misunderstandings" that should be solved before making the final step. Hopefully there are some glimmers of light for the future.
    If you do not know who to contact, better that you check which Lodge is recognized by yours Grand Lodge before. Then it is pretty easy as even if we have not big "masonic houses" the addresses of the Lodges can be found on the Grand Lodges websites.

    P.s.: the name of the lodge of the scandal of the '80 is P2 from "Propaganda 2", not P3 (P3 and P4 are an inventions of journalists)
  8. Center

    Center Registered User

    Well the choice of GM Di Bernardo to move away from the French obedience and to found a new one in 1993 is not directly linked of the well known `propaganda 2` , the reasons are really complex and in some ways questionable, the most known one is the so called 'Cordova Inquiry` and his relationship with some members inside the GOI. Unfortunately Italy went trough another famous schism long time before, the split between 'Palazzo Giustiniani` and `Piazza del Gesu` in 1908 regarding different views inside the Grand Orient regarding the teaching of the religion inside the elementary schools. The same Di Bernardo left the founded GLRI to found the Academy of the Dignity Order in 2002. There are much more considerations to do, but what matters is that the historic tradition of the Freemasonry in Italy is really solid, and there are in every part of the world men of great quality that witness with their dignity the unchangeable precepts of Masonry as landmark of purity, work and freedom, indiscriminately from which lodge they belong, and in accordance with the principles to be a Free Mason.
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2017
  9. vinceatwork

    vinceatwork Registered User

    With reference to Luigi Visentin’s post, I have found a book written by Bro. Dino Arrigo, 'Nuovi Fratelli' (New Brothers), covering the separation of a number of Mason from the Grand Orient d’ Italia, to found the Regular Grand Lodge of Italy in 1993.

    This book can be found here:

    With reference to Bloke’s post, “there is some good reasons not to recognize some GLs,” It may be of interest to all the movement among some brethren, worldwide, to build bridges, to "unite people who otherwise would have stayed at perpetual distance." You can find some information on this movement here:
  10. Center

    Center Registered User

    I suggest you before to read the book Fratelli D'Italia -Pinotti -BUR is really critical, but well documented and represents a situation in Italy that is quite peculiar. Is really complex the situation of the freemasonry in Italy, as it is quite particular also the Italian situation in general, much more than the easy cliche', Machiavelli's country. There are several points of the book one could not like, not agree, but in general he interviewed past grand masters, and consulted official reports indicating every single source. Still Freemasonry, is a great thing for me, even if I am not a regular brother. The book shows with rational arguments why the Italian situation is different, he wrote also book about the Opus day. The only thing I do not like is that avoid to point out any positive side. As it has an approach as a journalist that try to force his own assumptions but his my opinion. Much more scientific than the books of Gioiele Magaldi, that have a clear complottist approach( in my opinion), although he claim to be a brother.
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
  11. vinceatwork

    vinceatwork Registered User

    Sure thing, Center. I don’t care about political regularity or otherwise, and I subscribe to Bro. Alain de Keghel’s desire to "unite people who otherwise would have stayed at perpetual distance." To tear down barriers, and to build bridges of light. Just recently MW Bro. Fabio Fenzi, Grand Master of the GLRI, has appointed a Catholic priest as Grand Chaplain, in a gesture of reconciliation with the Roman Catholic Church. Bro Fenzi is sending me the book “Nuovi Fratelli” shortly, and perhaps I will be able to correspond with its author, Bro. Dino Arrigo. I will keep you posted.
  12. Bloke

    Bloke Premium Member

    That sounds a bit strange. Is he a Roman Catholic Priest or from another "Catholic Church" which is not in full communion with Rome, or more rightly, the Holy See ?

    I would be very surprised to hear a RC Priest is a Grand Officer, unless he's kept his membership quiet..
  13. Elexir

    Elexir Registered User

    Considering that one of the reasons pope Francis started the whole affair against the Knights of Malta was to rid them of freemasons it might be counter-productive. The current pope has problems with their own chilvaric orders as well as the political freemasonry that does exist so he will not mend the situation.
    Bloke likes this.
  14. Center

    Center Registered User

    I recommend you another book from the same author I quoted, he explains the relationship between the Vatican and the Italian Freemasonry, mainly outside any simplicistic chilvaric order consideration, possibly if you are really interested can scan it digitally (or buy the ebook) and use google translate scan function, is from Pinotti,
    If you are interested to a particular topic I can do a 5 minutes translation.

    He speaks also about the new Pope, and there are also some unpublished letters. But he still is very critical and I do not like his approach for this reason. As journalist he does not say nothing directly, he just compose the facts highlighting the stories in a certain order. Despite all, is worth a reading because of his scientific approach.
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  15. Bloke

    Bloke Premium Member

    I would be interested and would love to take you up on that offer.
  16. vinceatwork

    vinceatwork Registered User

    As far as I know, there is only ONE Roman Catholic Church, and the appointed priest can only be of that Church. See for yourself:
  17. Bloke

    Bloke Premium Member

    Thank you- but I note that's from 2005, however that's still post Cardinal Ratzinger's Declaration on Masonic Associations (Quaesitum est)

    I note in the article you supply, "During his address announcing the appointment of the priest, whom he did not identify by name,"..

    Of course Freemasonry would be willing to appoint any worthy Brother to the post of "Chaplain", mind you, there might be some semantics here in was he "installed" or did he have some other role ? But lets assume "installed" but its still an assumption.

    I agree, there is only one Roman Catholic Church, but there are lots of Catholic Churches - many of which are in communion with the Holy See, but many are not like Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East, or Catholic Diocese of the Old Catholics in Germany, are not and neither of which are headed by the Pope. I met a "Catholic Priest" in Freemasonry once - the fact he had a wife kinda made me appreciate the phrase "Catholic Church" has a broader meaning for many beyond the RCC. You need to be careful because "Catholic" and "Catholic Church" can be used in broader sense beyond the RCC

    From what I understand, if you want to find Catholic Clergy as prominent Freemasons - look to the history of Freemasonry in South America - its on my list to research one day...
  18. Center

    Center Registered User

    sure, the first chapter starts on why a Jesuit Pope? will copy paste in google the first pages
    to start
  19. Center

    Center Registered User

    for Bloke,
    this is the way the book starts,
    I ommitted the notes that remand to the sources

    Masonic lodges, Jesuits and other powers in struggle

    the election of a Jesuit, Father Jorge
    mario bergoglio, at the throne of Peter is an epoch-making fact.
    the victory in conclave of the first Jesuit pope in history is
    occurred after a gigantic battle of power, whose proportions have not yet been understood.
    the pendulum of history yes
    is moved, making a very wide oscillation, which changes the
    balance of the oldest institution in the world. After a
    riodo long 35 years, started in 1978 with the ascent to the throne of
    Pope Wojtyla continued without interruption with the
    Ratzinger's papacy, everything seems to change, bringing a wind
    new in the dark rooms of the curia but also in the community
    world Catholicism and in the wider theater of geopolitics, of the
    which the Vatican is a very important actor.
    what a profound meaning the Jesuit's ascent has
    bergoglio at the papal throne? What consequences will be produced by one
    a turn that was greeted with joy by the faithful, but which has been
    lutated too superficially?
    Which forces have reversed the apparently written outcome
    of a conclave that seemed to assign the papacy to many figures
    distant from that of bergoglio and even antagonists, as in
    case of the cardinal angel scola, exponent of
    communion e

    public opinion has begun to perceive that behind the
    internal conflict, unprecedented, there is much more: a struggle between
    factions that are competing for the very future of the
    church of
    there is the presence of an obscure drawing, of a very "level"
    higher comparison: and the nodes to be dissolved, to understand how much
    it happens, they are many.
    More than one clue emerged.
    in the course of the work of the
    missionary cardinals, the only one authorized to investigate the
    involved in the burning escape of papal documents, a
    rola has made even the leaves of the well-groomed startle and quiver
    Vatican gardens: "masonry".
    After the start of the criminal investigation that led to the arrest
    of Paolo Gabriele, the aide of the room of
    blessed XVi, accused of being "the crow", pope
    ratzinger, today "emeritus", has
    the three cardinals of the commission were called to report several times
    instructed by him to shed light on the Vatileaks case.
    For a number of reasons, the powers of this commission were
    huge. Since the cardinals in charge were all "emeritus", that is, free from pastoral or curia appointments and therefore with much time to
    disposition to investigate, and being over eighty and therefore untied from the conclave, they were, or at least they had to be,
    Super partes
    the papal mandate made them able to operate in extreme
    freedom, so they could "override" hierarchies and proceed in one
    full schedule of hearings and assessments that took place in parallel with the investigation of the magistrates and the Vatican gendarmerie.
    This is how the head commission, the Spanish Julian
    jurist of the opus Dei, the Slovak Jozef
    tomko, former prefect of
    Propaganda Fide, and Italian
    savior De Giorgi, former archbishop of Palermo, have directly related to the pontiff,
    in the third
    loggia where the papal apartment is located and the
    secretariat of state.
    an overwhelming relationship, to what is given
    know; so strong that it was decisive in choosing
    ratzinger to resign.
    Ratzinger had it read only to his
    successor, pope
    but it is not excluded that it was decisive in blocking the candidacy of
    scola and di
    other candidates supported by powerful fundamentalist groups.
    the folder was armored in the safe of a room in the
    loggia of the apostolic palace. It is the dossier of poisons,
    of the miasma of the curia, of the secrets that remain in the Vatican
    never such.
    to draw it up, under the control of the three cardinals detec-
    tive, he was a father
    martignani, a Capuchin friar, already
    minutante of the
    secretariat of state that acted as secretary to
    1. the Post Office

    three high priests. Games of power, sex, money: everything is conflu
    in that relationship, which will have to direct the action of
    in the reform of the curia.
    there is not only the violation of the sixth and
    seventh commandment (do not commit impure acts and do not ruin
    coffins), with all that this implies in terms of credibility
    for the
    church (starting from
    the sores of the
    church are
    very deep. What are the "roots" of these ills?
    recalled the former vaticanista of «
    marco Politi (today
    analyst de
    «Il Fatto Quotidiano» and author of
    Joseph Ratzinger.
    Crisis of a papacy
    ) in an interview with Pierluigi
    apples of

    we know, based on the "Vatileaks" documents, that
    in the Vatican there are phenomena of corruption, which is great
    problem in the opacity of the Vatican bank, that there are struggles of
    cardinals, that there was a great ill feeling towards the
    Secretary of State
    all of this comes partly too
    from the lack of forces of
    blessed XV
    who is a great preacher, but does not have the talent of the man of government and has done
    the mistake of taking a person as a right-hand man
    which has a mainly theoretical formation, such as the cardinal
    tarcisio bertone and does not come from diplomatic or non-diplomatic experience
    he knew the Vatican machine and had no experience of the
    vatican paradox.
    obviously if we go to the deep roots
    of these evils are in a lack of coherence: because from a
    On the other hand, the message of the church is very high and on the other - as it has
    denounced the pope himself
    ratzinger - there are carrierisms, divi-
    sions, selfishness, personal interests and therefore, on the one hand, too much
    we often see prelates involved in money business and in the last ones
    public opinion has become extremely demanding against those that are scandals and sexual abuse, which for decades
    they have been hidden from the church ".
    let us pause for a moment on the work of the three cardinals,
    because the story is connected to the theme of the forces that occultly
    they work in the Vatican.
    The months of work in search of the manager
    of the continuous exodus of confidential documents outside the walls
    leonine have been cadenced by a fast pace: to alarm -
    metaphorically - it was not the "loss of water", but the idea
    of the hole in the castle walls of one of the last monarchies
    absolutes of the planet.
    of news and the removal of documents kept on the desk
    of one of the most powerful men in the world, not just the catch
    of one of the most faithful of the pope, the pontiff's butler
    accused of being one of the so-called crows, but also the shadow
    of Freemasonry, the "enemy" par excellence, dangerous as
    Communism, statutorily condemned for centuries because
    cused to conspire against the church to destroy it.
    during one of the many interrogations of late spring
    2012, a lay person of Italian citizenship, an employee of the
    secretariat of state, has framed its participation in the escape
    of news in a scenario even more disturbing than it already is
    he had not suggested the story of the crow-maid.
    the statements of the lay employee, almost made in tears,
    they opened a gash on the instigators, outlining a back-
    mysterious land: "I put myself at the service of one
    Masonic lodge that operates inside the Vatican and of which they are part
    also of the cardinals.
    purpose of our action, carried forward
    in the conviction of doing the good of the
    church, is to put an end to the current situation of anarchy that puts at risk the
    Christianity". What is the immediate goal?
    hit the cardinal
    bertone, driving the
    secretariat of state since 2006,
    «To get to its replacement»
    Behind the confession filtered by the Leonine walls at the end of the
    Thu 2012, revealing the intentions to cut off the government
    of the church the cardinal
    bertone, there is really one
    mas loggia
    sonica clinging to the heart of the Vatican?
    There is an evident clash of power in progress.
    in the conflict emerged
    that no room of the buttons is inviolable.
    however the mysteries
    they remain, as both the puppeteer and the director remain obscure.
    and the trial of Paolo Gabriele revealed that among the thousands
    of pages of documents seized on 25 May 2012 in
    of the papal butler Paolo Gabriele «very many
    concerning masonry and secret services ", as they have
    the agents of the gendarmerie were clarified in the courtroom on 2 October 2012
    who carried out the searches.
    in addition, in the house of the "crow", located in via
    egidio, close to the «observer
    Roman ", manuals and were found
    documentations of
    with instructions on fishing techniques
    and environmental interceptions, as well as numerous maps
    on espionage and trace detection methods.
    among the seized papers were also dossiers on P3 e
    on the P4, as well as documents that testified to a sort of
    session for the figure of
    bisignani, object of dozens of
    to this is added a real dossierag-
    on thorny issues: the case
    boffo, the internal procedures of
    operation of the Vatican gendarmerie and the disappearance of
    emanuela orlandi
    Heavy names
    then there is the network of confidants of the former butler of
    blessed XV
    the names of influential cardinals, such as the papal vicar for the
    Vatican City Monsignor
    and the former vicecamerlengo Paolo
    Sardinians, indicated as belonging to
    internal Masonic lodge; bishops like Francesco
    cavina (now in the diocese of carpi, but previously in the
    secretariat of state), and people in the past very close to pope
    ratzinger, as the former secretary ingrid press.
    These were some of the people with whom Paolo Gabriele,
    the former papal butler convicted of the theft of documents
    reserved, he had contacts and 734/5000
    733 characters over 5000 maximum:
    scambiava confidenze su problemi ri- guardanti la santa sede, secondo quanto è emerso dall’interro- gatorio reso il 6 giugno 2012 da Gabriele al giudice istruttore Piero antonio bonnet e reso pubblico il 2 ottobre 2012 nella seconda udienza del processo. nell’aula del tribunale d’oltretevere il promotore di giusti- zia nicola Picardi ha chiesto conto a Gabriele di quanto detto nell’interrogatorio sul fatto di essersi sentito «suggestionato» dalla «situazione ambientale» parlando di vicende che costitui- vano «scandalo per la fede» e delle «confidenze che scambiava con il cardinale comastri, con monsignor cavina, con il cardinale sardi», che aveva definito «una specie di guida spirituale», «e con ingrid stampa».
    exchanged confidences on problems
    looking at the Holy See, according to what emerged from the inter-
    gatorio made on 6 June 2012 by Gabriele to the investigating judge
    Piero antonio bonnet and published on 2 October 2012 in the
    second hearing of the trial.
    in the courtroom of oltretevere the promoter of justice
    Aunt Nicola Picardi asked Gabriele about what was said
    in the interrogation on having felt «influenced»
    from the "environmental situation" talking about events that constitute
    a "scandal for the faith" and of the "confidences that exchanged"
    with the cardinal
    comastri, with monsignor
    cavina, with the cardinal
    Sardinians ", who had defined" a kind of spiritual guide ",
    «And with press ingrid».
  20. Bloke

    Bloke Premium Member

    Thank you for taking the time Brother
    ". and the trial of Paolo Gabriele revealed that among the thousands of pages of documents seized on 25 May 2012 in of the papal butler Paolo Gabriele «very many concerning masonry and secret services ", as they have the agents of the gendarmerie were clarified in the courtroom on 2 October 2012
    who carried out the searches. in addition, in the house of the "crow", located in via egidio, close to the «observer Roman ", manuals and were found documentations of intelligence with instructions on fishing techniques and environmental interceptions, as well as numerous maps on espionage and trace detection methods. among the seized papers were also dossiers on P3 e on the P4..."

    I would not read much into that "concerning masonry"- without seeing what the documents are. It's a comment with no context or clarification.

    "a internal Masonic lodge"

    Again, this might be a clandestine group modeled on Freemasonry, or it simply might be using "Masonic Lodge" as a facsimile for a select closed group.

    Regardless, to not expect a State (and the Vatican is a State) to have intrigues and spies would be naive. However the Church has a long history of using Freemasonry and a boogieman - perhaps this is just more of the same..

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