Warrior1256
Site Benefactor
Lol....same back at ya Brother. Let's move on.
My Freemasonry | Freemason Information and Discussion Forum
Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Greetings from an "irregular"
- Thread starter wufilas
- Start date
MasonicHermit
Registered User
I don't understand this statement. If he's initiated why can't y'all have a Masonic conversation?
Sent from my LG-M153 using My Freemasonry mobile app
If they are initiated into a body not recognized as Regular then Masonic discussion is prohibited.
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
MasonicHermit
Registered User
dfreybur
Premium Member
There is issue. I'm a big fan of the George Washington stance on the issue. But it's politics.
LK600
Premium Member
Maybe I've missed to much in this thread, but I don't understand the relevance. Of course they (meaning irregular) have no duty to uphold our (regular) obligations... nor am I aware of a situation in which it would be necessary (accept out of politeness since we have nothing Masonically to do with each other). They are irregular, and thus a separate organization than ours. Their obligation is their business, and the only bearing it has for me is not as a Mason but a human, and therefore I would not want to cause any form of harm to them whether I agree with them or not.
Brother JC
Moderating Staff
I haven’t been able to skip coffee since I was 15, and it has nothing to do with regularity. Blood, pure lifeblood.
LK600
Premium Member
Yes.... nothing before coffee matters. The older I get the more true it becomes.
I should hope we don’t use the word “despise.” Disagree? Even dispute? Sure. But that’s a strong enough emotion for me.
One of the great benefits of Freemasonry is traveling. You really are missing out if unable to do so.
MasonicHermit
Registered User
The MM I met with told me the exact same thing!
Sent from my LG-M153 using My Freemasonry mobile app
dfreybur
Premium Member
I call coffee "morning holy water". Some people take this as a joke. Others have seen me pray before taking my first sip so they take it as an explanation. I rather like that both groups get my approach right. The fact that I pray over my coffee does not make the term "morning holy water" not a joke.
Meh- the six lodges here keep me busy enough when I want a Masonic kick but being a community as close as we are I have no idea who belongs to which lodge.
Dear All,
I'm a 35 years engineer from Lebanon already i have opened a threads for more info in other section. I was happy to found this post becaus I'm facing a problem in lebanon regarding the regular and irregular bodies here.
I'm not able to contact a regular lodges and it's easy to contact irregular or fraud one. I don't want to take a false step after waiting all these years before contacting lodges.
I'm active in my community and in my Church, I was happy reading about all points regarding freemasonry here and in other places.
Please accept my hunger for information
Best regards
I'm a 35 years engineer from Lebanon already i have opened a threads for more info in other section. I was happy to found this post becaus I'm facing a problem in lebanon regarding the regular and irregular bodies here.
I'm not able to contact a regular lodges and it's easy to contact irregular or fraud one. I don't want to take a false step after waiting all these years before contacting lodges.
I'm active in my community and in my Church, I was happy reading about all points regarding freemasonry here and in other places.
Please accept my hunger for information
Best regards
The list Grand Lodges there that are Regular and Recognized should be easy to find. Making contact with them may be a more difficult process. In many middle eastern countries Freemasonry must be very circumspect out of necessity due to a history of persecution. Make sure you are contacting the right body and be patient. The process can be very slow, especially in a world that focuses so much on instant gratification now.
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
Thank you very much for all of you, i think this might be the issue i couldn't found contacts.
I will keep patient and try to search more.
Thx again
Love of Truth
Registered User
In common with almost everyone here, I have been raised to the Sublime Degree within a constituent lodge of a Grand Lodge that is recognized as regular. In the process of becoming a MM, I received a charge to uphold the Ancient Landmarks, and, specifically, I assumed the obligation to - without using the exact words in the obligation - to avoid irregular Masonry and clandestinely-made Masons. So, I recognize that nothing we are going to say or do on this chat board is going to change the GLs we all belong to one iota.
Since this discussion is simply fantasizing regarding "what if," I would like to propose a suggestion to guide the conversation. Forget personal comfort zones when answering. Do not pay your comfort zone any attention, and do not worry about what someone else may or may not be comfortable with. Instead, think of how our GLs and those Grand Lodges in France and elsewhere that either admit women or do not recognize a Supreme Being or do not have the VoSL upon the A..r, may come into a state of amity some day. We don't need to articulate why it cannot be so. That is already the position, and it has been articulated many, many times long before I was born. If things do not change, it will still be articulated peridically long after I am dead. When I advise to not consider comfort zones, I am not encouraging anyone to go out of their way to be rude, or obnoxious. I am simply saying if you have something worthy of thought - based upon Masonic Law, or principles inculcated into ritual, please share it. Ultimately, if and when change comes in this area, it will happen, and those making the decision will not consult you or me to ask us if we are "comfortable" with the change. I don't envision that such a drastic change may happen in the future without the leadership "feeling the pulse" of those they serve, and such changes would certainly involve voting all the Brethren assembled at an annual GL meeting, and there will - prior to such a vote in each GL - be passionate speeches in both directions.
And, that is my point: It should be a passion-free discussion; or, at least, one with very subdued passions. The voting members at GL are supposed to be Smooth Ashlars. They should be capable of COMFORTABLY discussing in a very passion-subdued manner those subjects that, once upon a time (when they were only rough ashlars), they could not.
So, having said the forgoing by way of "stage-setting," let me share my 2-cents worth (and, perhaps, I am inflating the value of my contribution!).
1) I look forward to the day when the UGLE and the Grand Orient de France kiss and make up.
2) I look forward to the other GLs following suit.
3) I look forward to the day when Le Droit Humane and Universal Co-Masonry heal their differences, and to the day when we recognize them as regular. As well, I look forward to the day when the few women-only GLs of Freemasonry are fully seen as regular, and recognized as peer organizations.
Both the Regular GLs and the "Irregular" GLs will have to change to make this happen. One of the first things that must happen before any of this may occur is agreement on which list is the complete and full list of "Ancient Landmarks." That, frankly, should have happened 200 years ago, on a world-wide basis. It might have prevented the schism between UGLE and GOdF.
GOdF - They should re-employ language recognizing the GAOTU, and place the VSL on the A..r (even if it is simply a copy of their GL Constitution). Personally, I am fine with atheists being Masons so long as they are not "stupid." I am against any man (believer or not) being a Freemason if he is stupid. By stupid, I mean stubbornly simple-minded to the point where he interprets everything literally, and cannot see past the end of his nose. I am not saying that everyone admitted to the degrees of Masonry needs to have an IQ over 150. I am saying they need to be patient enough to keep an open mind about all of this symbolism; recognizing that what they don't see today, they may see plainly tomorrow. If they cannot be that patient - again, regardless of whether the person believes in a SB or not - then I do not consider that man (or woman) a fit candidate for the degrees of Freemasonry. Lastly, while I favor women receiving the degrees (if it is their heart's desire), I do believe in the separation of the sexes for Masonic service. I think organizations such as GOdF would need to form men's and women's chapters out each lodge or groupings of lodges. In practice, I think they can meet together as one lodge for business/stated communications, but degrees should be worked on a segregated basis. Lastly, the GOdF (and similar GLs) must not meddle in political affairs / no discussion of politics or religion in lodge. We offer a peculiar system of morality: Not a political prescription.
Regular GLs - I think from reading the, above, you can predict the concessions I would like to see one day in our GLs: Admission of women (and men's and women's chapters formed - perhaps on a lodge or regional basis); recognize the GLs we don't recognize today if they make concessions like I mentioned above; allow intervisitation from Masons from these GLs (even if they are atheists).
Universal Co-Masonry and Le Droit Humane: First of all, these two need to kiss and make up. Then, I would like to see them be as compliant as I envision GOdF someday. So, yes, men and women segregated for degrees, but together for business. Lastly, they would need to cede to York Rite and to Scottish Rite those degrees that are theirs.
In the USA, we have plenty of Christian churches in each town: Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Baptist, Methodist, and the list goes on. I happen to be a Mormon, and - while a number of the foregoing churches do not recognize us Mormons as Christian, they do not challenge our right to exist as a church (nor do we, them). In each state we have a GL and a PHA GL. And, in all but about 7 states, both are seen as regular. While I think the landmark of one Grand Lodge recognized in each non-overlapping jurisdiction may have fit well in 18th Century England (it didn't....viz Antients and Moderns), it is not a good fit in our day and time, and, frankly, it has not been a good fit for much of the history of the United States of America. So long as we "regulars" persist in an "us and them" mentality toward a huge number of Masons we see as irregular, how will we ever get to just one GL per non-overlapping jurisdiction? It is impossible. Speculative Freemasonry existed prior to 1717. We know that - at one time - the MM degree did not exist, at all. When the Antients and the Moderns finally became UGLE, they agreed that the MM degree was not complete without the HRA. Where and when did HRA come into being? It was not around (that we can document) in 1717. My point is if we can go from 2 degrees, to 3 degrees, to "4 degrees as 3," then there is quite a bit of flexibility in defining what the hell Freemasonry actually is. I think the Freemasons on the earth today, collectively, have the power to decide if an "ancient landmark" is too ancient and needs to be retired.
For the institution of Freemasonry to empower its disciples to, each, successfully make the house not made with hands, it must be a living, breathing, nurturing educational institution: Not a shrine to the purity of ages past; not a museum, and not a cemetery. The day I was raised a MM, I took pride in receiving the same degree that George Washington once received. I was cognizant of the fact that degrees vary from GL to GL, and I knew that my MM degree was largely based on Smith-Webb (who did his work long after George Washington received his MM degree). I know that there is no way the degree I received is identical to what Washington received. Still, in my heart, I know that I am a MM, and I recognize the Father of the USA as a MM, as well. There certainly are many similarities between what I received in 2016, and what George Washington received in 1753. I feel bound to him, and I trust that each of you do, as well. I am all for Tradition. One of those traditions is the Brethren of the Fraternity occasionally change the Tradition. Plenty of such changes happened in the 18th Century.
Since this discussion is simply fantasizing regarding "what if," I would like to propose a suggestion to guide the conversation. Forget personal comfort zones when answering. Do not pay your comfort zone any attention, and do not worry about what someone else may or may not be comfortable with. Instead, think of how our GLs and those Grand Lodges in France and elsewhere that either admit women or do not recognize a Supreme Being or do not have the VoSL upon the A..r, may come into a state of amity some day. We don't need to articulate why it cannot be so. That is already the position, and it has been articulated many, many times long before I was born. If things do not change, it will still be articulated peridically long after I am dead. When I advise to not consider comfort zones, I am not encouraging anyone to go out of their way to be rude, or obnoxious. I am simply saying if you have something worthy of thought - based upon Masonic Law, or principles inculcated into ritual, please share it. Ultimately, if and when change comes in this area, it will happen, and those making the decision will not consult you or me to ask us if we are "comfortable" with the change. I don't envision that such a drastic change may happen in the future without the leadership "feeling the pulse" of those they serve, and such changes would certainly involve voting all the Brethren assembled at an annual GL meeting, and there will - prior to such a vote in each GL - be passionate speeches in both directions.
And, that is my point: It should be a passion-free discussion; or, at least, one with very subdued passions. The voting members at GL are supposed to be Smooth Ashlars. They should be capable of COMFORTABLY discussing in a very passion-subdued manner those subjects that, once upon a time (when they were only rough ashlars), they could not.
So, having said the forgoing by way of "stage-setting," let me share my 2-cents worth (and, perhaps, I am inflating the value of my contribution!).
1) I look forward to the day when the UGLE and the Grand Orient de France kiss and make up.
2) I look forward to the other GLs following suit.
3) I look forward to the day when Le Droit Humane and Universal Co-Masonry heal their differences, and to the day when we recognize them as regular. As well, I look forward to the day when the few women-only GLs of Freemasonry are fully seen as regular, and recognized as peer organizations.
Both the Regular GLs and the "Irregular" GLs will have to change to make this happen. One of the first things that must happen before any of this may occur is agreement on which list is the complete and full list of "Ancient Landmarks." That, frankly, should have happened 200 years ago, on a world-wide basis. It might have prevented the schism between UGLE and GOdF.
GOdF - They should re-employ language recognizing the GAOTU, and place the VSL on the A..r (even if it is simply a copy of their GL Constitution). Personally, I am fine with atheists being Masons so long as they are not "stupid." I am against any man (believer or not) being a Freemason if he is stupid. By stupid, I mean stubbornly simple-minded to the point where he interprets everything literally, and cannot see past the end of his nose. I am not saying that everyone admitted to the degrees of Masonry needs to have an IQ over 150. I am saying they need to be patient enough to keep an open mind about all of this symbolism; recognizing that what they don't see today, they may see plainly tomorrow. If they cannot be that patient - again, regardless of whether the person believes in a SB or not - then I do not consider that man (or woman) a fit candidate for the degrees of Freemasonry. Lastly, while I favor women receiving the degrees (if it is their heart's desire), I do believe in the separation of the sexes for Masonic service. I think organizations such as GOdF would need to form men's and women's chapters out each lodge or groupings of lodges. In practice, I think they can meet together as one lodge for business/stated communications, but degrees should be worked on a segregated basis. Lastly, the GOdF (and similar GLs) must not meddle in political affairs / no discussion of politics or religion in lodge. We offer a peculiar system of morality: Not a political prescription.
Regular GLs - I think from reading the, above, you can predict the concessions I would like to see one day in our GLs: Admission of women (and men's and women's chapters formed - perhaps on a lodge or regional basis); recognize the GLs we don't recognize today if they make concessions like I mentioned above; allow intervisitation from Masons from these GLs (even if they are atheists).
Universal Co-Masonry and Le Droit Humane: First of all, these two need to kiss and make up. Then, I would like to see them be as compliant as I envision GOdF someday. So, yes, men and women segregated for degrees, but together for business. Lastly, they would need to cede to York Rite and to Scottish Rite those degrees that are theirs.
In the USA, we have plenty of Christian churches in each town: Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Baptist, Methodist, and the list goes on. I happen to be a Mormon, and - while a number of the foregoing churches do not recognize us Mormons as Christian, they do not challenge our right to exist as a church (nor do we, them). In each state we have a GL and a PHA GL. And, in all but about 7 states, both are seen as regular. While I think the landmark of one Grand Lodge recognized in each non-overlapping jurisdiction may have fit well in 18th Century England (it didn't....viz Antients and Moderns), it is not a good fit in our day and time, and, frankly, it has not been a good fit for much of the history of the United States of America. So long as we "regulars" persist in an "us and them" mentality toward a huge number of Masons we see as irregular, how will we ever get to just one GL per non-overlapping jurisdiction? It is impossible. Speculative Freemasonry existed prior to 1717. We know that - at one time - the MM degree did not exist, at all. When the Antients and the Moderns finally became UGLE, they agreed that the MM degree was not complete without the HRA. Where and when did HRA come into being? It was not around (that we can document) in 1717. My point is if we can go from 2 degrees, to 3 degrees, to "4 degrees as 3," then there is quite a bit of flexibility in defining what the hell Freemasonry actually is. I think the Freemasons on the earth today, collectively, have the power to decide if an "ancient landmark" is too ancient and needs to be retired.
For the institution of Freemasonry to empower its disciples to, each, successfully make the house not made with hands, it must be a living, breathing, nurturing educational institution: Not a shrine to the purity of ages past; not a museum, and not a cemetery. The day I was raised a MM, I took pride in receiving the same degree that George Washington once received. I was cognizant of the fact that degrees vary from GL to GL, and I knew that my MM degree was largely based on Smith-Webb (who did his work long after George Washington received his MM degree). I know that there is no way the degree I received is identical to what Washington received. Still, in my heart, I know that I am a MM, and I recognize the Father of the USA as a MM, as well. There certainly are many similarities between what I received in 2016, and what George Washington received in 1753. I feel bound to him, and I trust that each of you do, as well. I am all for Tradition. One of those traditions is the Brethren of the Fraternity occasionally change the Tradition. Plenty of such changes happened in the 18th Century.