Illegal immigrants plan to leave over Ariz. law

Discussion in 'The Refreshment Lounge' started by Blake Bowden, Apr 30, 2010.

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  1. drapetomaniac

    drapetomaniac Premium Member Premium Member

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    You're repeatedly comparing interborder travel to local travel. That's not minutiae.
     
  2. Traveling Man

    Traveling Man Premium Member

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    Let's get back to the topic shall we? I'm not interested in you digging yourself into a hole, or helping you dig your hole.

    Your case is minutiae in pertinence of this thread. Which is titled: Illegal immigrants plan to leave over Ariz. Law.

    The law, which is the same as the United States federal law regarding immigration.

    Please put me on your ignore list!
    Thank you.
     
  3. Bill Lins

    Bill Lins Moderating Staff Staff Member

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    Funny- that was not alleged in the link you provided. What did you do- go around & check for permits? Are you the one who made the anonymous complaints?

    Unlike most other municipalities, the City of Austin does not believe in "grandfathering". Wouldn't surprise me if they weren't intentionally trying to condemn the entire neighborhood so that it could be "gentrified" & generate higher property taxes. I sure hope you aren't helping this along, drape. If you are, you should be ashamed of yourself.
     
  4. Blake Bowden

    Blake Bowden Administrator Staff Member

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    Is your statement based on law or race? If law, where does 1070 state "if you live in Arizona and look brown, speak Spanish or have an accent, you will be harassed by the authority"...

    ....it doesn't....

    http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2010
  5. Bro. Stewart P.M.

    Bro. Stewart P.M. Lead Moderator Emeritus Staff Member

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    Now, this is what I was waiting on someone to post here!! Thanks Blake.


    As to the remainder of you all involved in this friendly debate a reminder:

    Debates are intended to educate, inform, & involve; be factual and non-personal. Remember that these people involved in the debate are your Brothers & Friends and feelings can become easily hurt which may seem minute at the time but devistating over the duration.
     
  6. drapetomaniac

    drapetomaniac Premium Member Premium Member

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    I'm on topic - As you said the locals now have the federal powers. Those powers include detaining American citizens in America until they provide *enough* documentation that they are American - beyond their driver's license and SS#.

    Americans do not have the expectation that they have to carry more than their driver's license while driving or risk being pulled off the road and detained while your family scrambles to get more information about you. Until now.
     
  7. drapetomaniac

    drapetomaniac Premium Member Premium Member

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    Blake - was is reasonable suspicion for being undocumented to you? We've already seen many of the brothers here support racial profiling in other threads. Senator McCain of Arizona has said undocumented immigrants go around causing traffic accidents on purpose. So that's one suspicious act (although bizarre and not based on fact). Rep. Brian Bilbray said you can tell by the clothes is someone is undocumented.

    Here's the history of racial profiling in Arizona:
    http://acluaz.org/DrivingWhileBlackorBrown.pdf

    Blacks Hispanics and others were 2 and a half times more likely to get searched once pulled over, while not more likely to have contraband (in other words, the unjustified searches actually were unjustified). It would be nice to believe that the training they were *forced* to put into place and the policies they were *forced* to put into place against racial profiling are 100% followed and effective, and after only a few years the culture has 100% changed regarding racial profiling in Arizona. But then it would be nice if the anti-discrimination laws of the 1960s didn't need re-enforced at times too.

    And let's be clear - Arizona didn't "require" Brown people who spoke Spanish get searched more under prior laws - it just happened. And now there's ann immigration specific law requiring more action from police.

    So far one person has said if the person doesn't speak *any* English and/or if they run away (which Americans do too). Is that the only thing folks here see as "reasonable suspicion" for immigration status? If one of you are standing next to a brown guy with a thick accent, you expect just as much scrutiny as him - and expect to be hauled off until your family can bring enough documentation?
     
  8. Traveling Man

    Traveling Man Premium Member

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    I find it absolutely hysterical that Arizona implemented this law while legislating against compliance with the Real ID law that should have resolved the same issue with no more than a verified drivers license, perhaps they are bipolar?
     
  9. Blake Bowden

    Blake Bowden Administrator Staff Member

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    Drape, I stopped reading your post because it had nothing to do with my initial question. Again, where does 1070 state "if you live in Arizona and look brown, speak Spanish or have an accent, you will be harassed by the authority?"

    Law enforcement in AZ will be under EXTREME scrutiny because of this bill. I'm sure the ACLU has their team of lawyers lined up and armed with a deck of race cards.

    Real ID has nothing to do with enforcing immigration law. We can ask for ID's all day long, but if immigration laws aren't enforced....what's the point? BTW, the majority of States OPPOSE Real ID.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REAL_ID_Act
     
  10. drapetomaniac

    drapetomaniac Premium Member Premium Member

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    Awesome. You didn't read it, but you know it was entirely unrelated.. Share some of that magic.

    Acting on "Reasonable suspicion" for someone being undocumented. When you're talking to someone, how do you suspect they are undocumented in normal conversation?

    Other laws didn't require it in Arizona either - but it happened - as shown by the information you chose to ignore.
     
  11. Blake Bowden

    Blake Bowden Administrator Staff Member

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    I stopped at "Blacks Hispanics and others were 2 and a half times more likely to get searched once pulled over" because it had nothing to do with my initial question. No need for fussy comments.


    A good article:
    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/p...fted-immigration-law-in-Arizona-92136104.html
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2010
  12. Blake Bowden

    Blake Bowden Administrator Staff Member

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    [video=youtube;fmRUpmoaUA8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmRUpmoaUA8[/video]

    Epic fail.
     
  13. swole

    swole Registered User

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    My humble opinon;

    1) I do notagree with the ending of welfare programs as to that may be a stereotypical opinion. Not all welfare recipients are immigrants.

    2) Not too sure on what specifically you are refering to as far as accountability in congress. I agree there should be consequences for those held in contempt.

    3) Wow, I think that would hold the same equivalence of legalizeing marijuana. It would be a whole different ball game if that was to be in effect.:47:

    4) STRONGLY AGREE Especially if there naturalization laws are stricter than ours

    5) Strongly I agree. One of the very best measures of reform passed at the late session of Congress was that putting the process of naturalization directly under the supervision of the Bureau of Immigration in the Department of Commerce and imposing the condition that aliens applying for naturalization shall be able to speak the English language. We need more of that in the process.

    6) I would agree if it would fall under the New "Improved reform" Not granted just because they are here.

    7) I dont believe, although funny, would behoove Americans in taxing illegals in exchange for citizenship. There is a number of things to take in consideration on the type of people that are already here applying for citizenship. Our way of life would drastically change if we just "approve" citizenship to all that are here. Not everyone presently here is an "upstanding" individual with morals.

    Just my two cents
     
  14. Blake Bowden

    Blake Bowden Administrator Staff Member

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    Double standard?

    [video=youtube;bRoNOnvMBpI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRoNOnvMBpI[/video]
     
  15. Dave in Waco

    Dave in Waco Premium Member

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    When our ancestors began colonizing this land there weren't immigration laws. The residing population were not concerned about such matters as long as the people were not an open threat to them. Now as time went on, things changed a bit. But in regards to the social and legal conventions at the time, the world was still very much a place that lived and died by the old saying, "Might makes right." Since our ancestors were able to force themselves upon the residing population, the land became theirs by law. It wasn't until centuries later that immigration laws came into being here in the Americas.

    1. I wouldn't be in favor of ending all welfare programs. There are people who do need that support because through no fault of their own they are unable to support themselves. I do believe we need to reform our welfare system and move it away from being a system that turns it into a drug for those on it. What's the old saying, "Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he will never go hungry." Our welfare system needs to gear itself more toward teaching people to fish rather them daily feeding.

    2. The Tea Party has in its own way held Congress accountable. Different people join it for different reasons, but the common link is that Congress is not doing the job we elected them to do. The biggest fault of elected officials is that they have a sense of entitlement before they have their party's backing. As Jefferson put it, "A government should be afraid of its people, not its people afraid of their government." Our government has lost all fear of its people, therefore they serve at the will of the parties and not the people.

    3. Openning the borders completely would be a radical solution, but as pointed out by Bro. Dawson, that's a complete game changer. We would become a dumping ground for everyone's unwanted. It would be a repeat of the Cuban Refugees from the early 80's. Cuba sent boat loads of refugees to America, emptying many of the prisons. Florida is still dealing with that 30 years later.

    4. A simple solution, but we are never going to be able to force their government to do a thing. This is kind of where one of my feelings of America winning the Cold War was a bad thing. Being the lone superpower in the world, if we try to press anyone, we look like tyrants regardless of the reason. We're seen as the playground bully. We could do it during the Cold War, because we were the good guy defending the world from the evil Soviets. Without the threat of the evil Soviets to take over the world, we go from the strong hero to the bully. Example: Arizona makes a state law to enforce the federal immigration laws, and Mexico's President goes to the White House, mocks that law, and then demands a complete gun ban in America.

    5. Reforming the Immigration process would be a monster task, but this, like the welfare system reform, is a must. It's not a "we should think about it", "we should look into it", or a "we probably should" thing. One of my best friends and a brother Mason, married a great lady from England. They planned to live here, and it took a year to a year and a half for her to migrate here legally. Then it took another few months for her to be ok'ed to work here. And she is from a country of one of our strongest allies, spotless criminal record, was a contributing member of her country, and from a country with a low immigration demand.

    6. I would disagree with any type of program that gives citizenship or work rights to people already here. To me, that is rewarding people for illegal behavoir. It sends the wrong message. Plus like throwing open the borders, it's a big game changer.

    7. Legally, we should be taxing them already. America taxes both legal and illegal money earned. When a drug dealer is pursued on Federal charges, a lot of time it's failure to pay Uncle Sam. Even when a person makes $10's of millions in the drug trade, Uncle Sam still wants his part, and he can get pretty nasty when he doesn't get it.

    My hope is that government and the news media will start listening to some of these groups like the Tea Party. Maybe not to all the things they say, but that the get the underlying message from them. The People are unhappy with how the government is being run. Right now, the people are groping in darkness for change. Obama rode the change wave all the way to the White House. I know the media and government likes to think of the Tea Party as a small group of radicals. I think the government needs a good Masonic history lesson about another small group of radicals, before a group like the Tea Party misses one of their meetings on account their members were out "having tea" and fulfills its namesake. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
     
  16. TexMass

    TexMass Registered User

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    Some law enforcment in AZ calls this "resonable suspicion"

    Also, as I mentioned in the beginning, AZ has seen a huge reduction in Illegal Immigrants since 2000 (from 750,000 -250,000) The largest part has been in the last three years because there are no jobs right now. Immigrants saying they are leaving now is a very small percentage. The real danger to public safety is not the illegals who come here to pick in the fields but the drug runners. As far as the simple illegals, I think any one who hires one should have his business license pulled for a year for every one he has on payroll. THAT is where ther real problem lies. Make them toxic to businesses and you may see a larger reduction. They come here because of what we have to offer. Make it dangerous to offer anything. Maybe they'll try to earn it. JMHO.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2010
  17. Bill Lins

    Bill Lins Moderating Staff Staff Member

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    Upon what do you base this statement?
     
  18. TexMass

    TexMass Registered User

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  19. Blake Bowden

    Blake Bowden Administrator Staff Member

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    "But Escobar's suit says the law "is the product of racial bias aimed specifically at Hispanics" and places every Hispanic within the state at risk of losing his or her constitutional rights."

    Where does the law say that??

    http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

    It doesn't.

    SO WHAT! Should I file a lawsuit if a policeman asks for my ID, proof of insurance or vehicle registration? Last year I vacationed in Cozumel, should I file a lawsuit because THEY (Mexican Government) asked for my ID? If I was unable to provide ID, Mexico wouldn't permit me to enter the country.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2010
  20. TexMass

    TexMass Registered User

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    The Law does not define "reasonable suspicion"

    B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY
    21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS
    22 STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS
    23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE,
    24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE
    25 PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
    26 PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).


    I guess that could leave it up to certain criteria such as "if you live in Arizona and look brown, speak Spanish or have an accent"... (Cha, Cha, Chahhh) :)
     
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