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The big pink elephant in the room...

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jwhoff

Premium Member
Agreed.

I can honestly tell you I respect both Presidents Bush and Obama. They were chosen to lead the country. Neither has broken the law.

That is very much not to say about my agreement with what they did in office.

However, some of the same folks who currently disrespect President Obama were also raising the devil about President Bush. Anyone who discusses a president's actions without calling him President has little respect from me. My political views have absolutely no bearing on the way I address the potus' position of authority.

Civility and a lack of respect abound in our society today. It will come to no good end.
 
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jwhoff

Premium Member
I have no problem with him in his quest but don't confuse that with thinking you understand being black. I spoke on it this weekend. But I do want to publically commend Brother Hoff for an enlightening post. While the powers that be have us arguing over black vs white, they are screwing us all for green.

Understanding your last statement will, hopefully someday, make us all free men.

And yes, no white man can put himself in the shoes of another race. In fact, no man can put himself in the shoes of another. Empathy is just not that strong.

But you are right to consider the source and not let their action govern your one and only life brother.

I oft-times wonder how those who talk "chip on the shoulder" would handle the slurs. But then again, I think I have a very good idea.

God bless, protect, and forgive us all.
 
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Bro. David F. Hill

David F. Hill
Premium Member
I have met many older members of the Grand Lodge of Texas that at one time might have called me n***** but these men met me on the level and we parted on the square. They show me that there is a change of attitude coming. I would have no problem breaking bread with these men. Oh for the day when we can sit and listen to the "old-timers" from both Grand Lodges impart light to us younger folks.
 

Bill Lins

Moderating Staff
Staff Member
it is not correct when people of color around the globe are called racist.

Racism is a term used when a group oppresses another group( be it social, economical, physical or physiological and/or in the case of slavery all four) based on the color of their skin. And black people are not in position to oppress anyone!

My Brother, I must disagree with you on this. "Racism" is defined as one person or group regarding or treating another person or group differently solely due to a difference in race. Oppression is just one result, among many, stemming from racism. Blacks, Asians, and Middle Easterners are just as capable of being racist as are Caucasians, and quite often are. As MLK correctly stated (paraphrasing), we must learn to judge others by the content of their character rather than their origin or the color of their skin.
 
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Bro. Stewart P.M.

Lead Moderator Emeritus
Staff Member
Brethren,

We have now debated this topic in one form or direction for some 200 posts. As best that I can tell we are no better off than when we first began. Is there really any need to continue to chase each other in circles? It seems that everyone who has something to contribute has done so, and at times with a lot more emotion than is normally acceptable in a more formal debate. Everyone has done very well with their own self control, but there is going to be obvious personal feelings involved. There is a LONG road ahead for all of us BRETHREN in regards to racial tension, none of which can be solved via the internet. Walls come down only in person, one victory at a time. It is just my humble opinion that your energies here be funneled in other directions.

Unless there is some drastic reason to keep this topic open, I suggest it be closed and our efforts devoted to other areas of discussion around this site.
 

Bill Lins

Moderating Staff
Staff Member
Let's let it run a little longer. If things begin to get out of hand, we can shut it down then. Stopping a discussion prematurely tends to upset all involved, with good reason.
 

Bro. Vincent

Registered User
Look to the gentleman that said I like to stir the pot. There are over 200 posts in this thread obviously it is something that has been lying in the weeds and people wanted to discuss it. So if I'm stirring the pot to stir discussion so be it.

When this thread finally comes to an end ( and hopefully it will) all of you all will still be my brothers. I just think sometimes some people get uncomfortable when discussing it. And that's ok. Atleast we're discussing it. Alot of people made alot of valid points that I hadn't considered. I have to be honest about that.

But to basically say get over it, turn the page, move on etc. is disrespectful and only agitates the issue even more... I humbly ask, Does that make sense?

To the poster who said that people of color can be racist is comical and flat out wrong. You have to be in a position of authority to be racist. That point is and has been since the end of the Jim Crow era a fundamental argument amongst black and white scholars all over this country. By the way what is reverse racism? That term is silly to me.

Look, just because we are masonic brothers doesn't mean we will not have disagreements.

Someone said its about the choices you make in life. He's right. Life is about choices, but the problem is the deck isn't handed out evenly. And it has never been...So one has to make choices on the limited options you have in front of you, when there is a system in place to discourage your success. Not saying give or stop trying to do better fir yourself but black folk are keenly aware that's there...

Just because you have a few wealthy black people and a black president doesn't ring the bells for prosperity for black folk. This country was built on slavery and has caused black and white folk alike to still feel the physiological effects from it til this day. We have to find a way to heal from this...

Is it better for blacks than it was 40 years ago absolutely, is the playing Feild level and even, absolute not...

And this notion that is taught to people all over the world the black folks in this country are lazy, want a hand out, are gangsters, thieves, drug dealers, have multiple baby momas, always relying on the government, only play sports, want to rape women, so on and so forth is media hype. I should i say alot of it is..Because we as a people are not in a position to control our image to the masses via mass media, these are the images that are played for and about us to the world.


And because of that, I didn't expect many to understand what I was getting at to a certain degree but atleast we were able to discuss it in a respectful manner. That's where the seed of change starts. Even if the GLs didn't want to recognize one another or not visit each others lodges they are only as powerful as the members that make up the subordinate lodges.

I've been actively trying to visit MS lodges in my state of Mo. And I will continue to do so... The responses so far have been not bad at all. So I can personally feel some progress.

But if stirring the pot offers positive and respectful debates which lead to solutions and understanding one another, then again as states earlier, I stand guilty as charge my brethren.


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Michael Neumann

Premium Member
You are correct, reverse racism is a silly and fake term... it is just plain racism

When I was a young man I knew nothing of color. My father was in the service and as such I attended diverse schools from day 1. Up until my early 20's I thought racism was something we read about in the history books and up until recently I though all masons walked the level. My experience with Employee Relations showed me that racism is still here and going strong and the multiple experiences I have had since starting the petition has shown me that not all masons walk the level. Masons on both sides of the fence have said some pretty crazy stuff to me.

Americans with darker skin can be just as prejudice/racist as their lighter skinned brothers. Saying this is not possible means that you can call me whatever racial slur you feel like and prevent me from getting a promotion as the ER lady did simply because I have lighter skin than you. Is this fair? Through Affirmative Action and the many many laws in our country the table is tilted in favor of minorities. It is not my fault that the prison systems have a high majority of Black Americans than White Americans, here is a great article on the subject http://townhall.com/columnists/walterewilliams/2013/05/08/honest-examination-of-race-n1588213

The entire point of my previous post was to lay out all my irritations. After taking Business Law, Advanced Business Law, & Human Resource Management I have seen just how much the tables are tilted in the favor of minorities. Did you know that companies can be 100% minority and they will not be fined BUT if a predominantly majority company is not as equally diverse as the surrounding community the IRS fines them? Did you know that if I walk in with my degree that cost 40K and a minority walks in with their free HS diploma they will be hired before me because of the tax benefits? It has nothing to do with "taking jobs from white men" ... that is silly, what is fair is fair and the laws are not fair yet I still hear people complaining about being put down because they are black, what more do you want?

Equality can never be achieved through inequality.

Giving a hand out and making things easy in the short term is great but doing it in the long term makes people weak. The very laws that were meant to help pick-up our minority brethren are now starting to hurt them. Lowering test scores required for minorities to get into college suggests they are not capable of making the same scores as their majority brothers and sisters... and that is stupid because most of my friends are far more intelligent than I. Lowering employment requirements suggests that my minority brothers are not as efficient or capable on the job as I am... and that is silly because the PHA brother sitting to my right does almost twice the work I do. Giving a hand out makes people weak and they begin to not only depend on these lowered requirements but demand even more from the system.

In my personal opinion Blacks and Whites are equal in everything other than skin tone and until we as a nation understand this we will never get over the past. As a matter of fact you should read Thomas Jefferson's first draft of the Declaration, he attacks the King of England over the crown forcing slavery upon the nation. http://jeffersonpapers.princeton.ed...nal-rough-draught”-declaration-independence-0

"he has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating it’s most sacred rights of life & liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivating & carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere, or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither. this piratical warfare, the opprobrium of infidel powers, is the warfare of the CHRISTIAN king of Great Britain. determined to keep open a market where MEN should be bought & sold, he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or to restrain this execrable commerce; and that this assemblage of horrors might want no fact of distinguished die, he is now exciting those very people to rise in arms among us, and to purchase that liberty of which he has deprived them, by murdering the people upon whom he also obtruded them; thus paying off former crimes committed against the liberties of one people, with crimes which he urges them to commit against the lives of another."
 
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bupton52

Moderator
Premium Member
To the poster who said that people of color can be racist is comical and flat out wrong. You have to be in a position of authority to be racist.

Why can't they be? I am just as uncomfortable with "white boys" and "white folks" being spoken by African-American people as I am with "colored" and "n****". Racism is racism is racism and ANYBODY can be a racist.
 

jnjones86

Registered User
I'm not PHA but I appreciate your stance as a mason. Bravo! Even though PHA declined recognition in Arkansas, I feel that more masons with a stance like yours will improve our fraternity.


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Bro. Vincent

Registered User
You all have provided alot of passionate and thought provoking positions, lets now turn the corner to some answers to this discussion.

I will go first. How cool would it be to see PHA and MS members side by side at community events in the public's eye? Genuinely working together in the community?

Or an annual cookout? Where both sides can get together and fellowship openly with families and friends present as well?

Even if the GLs didn't openly sponsor it , as long as the GLs recognize each other it would be not be breaking the GLs by laws.

Any ideas?


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Michael Hatley

Premium Member
Such a good idea that something like that is already in the works :34:

Back a few pages, a bunch of you fellas skipped over something - I will try and draw your attention back to it.

Would my good Texas PHA Brethren be kind enough as to look up and post how much their dues and endowements cost them? Same for Brethren on the other side of the fence.

Maybe I'm wrong or been given incorrect information, but I think it is an important point - something that gets lost in the more emotional parts of this issue.
 

Bro. Stewart P.M.

Lead Moderator Emeritus
Staff Member
Why can't they be? I am just as uncomfortable with "white boys" and "white folks" being spoken by African-American people as I am with "colored" and "n****". Racism is racism is racism and ANYBODY can be a racist.

I totally agree with Bro. Byron on his way of thought. Racism knows no color or gender, it just is.
 

Michael Neumann

Premium Member
You all have provided alot of passionate and thought provoking positions, lets now turn the corner to some answers to this discussion.

I will go first. How cool would it be to see PHA and MS members side by side at community events in the public's eye? Genuinely working together in the community?

Or an annual cookout? Where both sides can get together and fellowship openly with families and friends present as well?

Even if the GLs didn't openly sponsor it , as long as the GLs recognize each other it would be not be breaking the GLs by laws.

Any ideas?


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This is a fresh idea, I like it. Does anyone know if this would violate any laws, rules, or regulations? In TX we have mutual recognition... so technically this would work and it would be a great way of forcing movement in the GLs.
 

bupton52

Moderator
Premium Member
This is a fresh idea, I like it. Does anyone know if this would violate any laws, rules, or regulations? In TX we have mutual recognition... so technically this would work and it would be a great way of forcing movement in the GLs.

I dont think that this would violate any laws. We may not be able to tag it officially as a masonic gathering, but unofficially we could get it done. Its as simple as hey we are doing trash cleanup in x community today. Does your lodge want to come?

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Bro. Vincent

Registered User
Again I am from ST. Louis, but I would more than willing to come down to Texas to support such an effort. And represent my home lodge there...I've slowly started fellowshipping with brethren from MS lodges here...

I would like to this sell this idea to my WM to see if our lodge could do the same thing here...


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James F Jackson

Registered User
going to visit my local lodge named village lodge 315 in miami shores fl. and nervous at the same time wish me luck.

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