Touchy Subject

[lilhancock]

Brother Blake that is much easier said than done. I am talking Lodge only here but to exclude your sexual orientation from lodge would be dang near imposable. This means both parties would have to submit to this rule otherwise someone who is quite about their orientation would be known to be gay. My orientation was given away on the petition when I was asked if I was married.

Thank you Brother for both of your posts. I knew we got off topic but I did not quite know how to work a back on topic post. That is/was my point exactly. We are asked if we are married off the bat. Or our husbands/wives are invited to events. Therefore it became a question for me if, in this day and age, could you believe it's a sin or not but still call them brother or sister if they posses those qualities.

You have all been extremely helpful and I really appreciate the professionalism of this conversation.

 

[Nate Riley]

Brother Blake that is much easier said than done. I am talking Lodge only here but to exclude your sexual orientation from lodge would be dang near imposable. This means both parties would have to submit to this rule otherwise someone who is quite about their orientation would be known to be gay. My orientation was given away on the petition when I was asked if I was married.

Couldn't a candidate just be a single (unmarried) male? We have inititiated several single fellows in the past few months. I have no idea what their sexual orientation is based on the petition.

But I will give you this, if you put married, I would have to assume that you are straight.

 

[ljlinson1206]

In sticking to the topic, I believe that if there were an event that was being held, for instance, the Christmas Dinner, then it would not be appropriate for a Gay man to bring his partner to said event.

This is not to say I don't think he should be a member of the lodge, but homosexual conduct is not an accepted practice within the Masonic Community. That's where it falls along the line of "Don't ask, Don't tell".

There again, this is just my own opinion.

 

[lilhancock]

homosexual conduct is not an accepted practice within the Masonic Community.

The OES Constitution says we're open to all faiths accept no faith. And I could be wrong but isn't Masonry the same? If so... where in your constitution does it state that he cannot bring his partner to a Masonic Christmas party? That it is against Masonry values for him to "practice" his homosexual ways?

 

[TCShelton]

The OES Constitution says we're open to all faiths accept no faith. And I could be wrong but isn't Masonry the same? If so... where in your constitution does it state that he cannot bring his partner to a Masonic Christmas party? That it is against Masonry values for him to "practice" his homosexual ways?

+1.

 

[rhitland]

In sticking to the topic, I believe that if there were an event that was being held, for instance, the Christmas Dinner, then it would not be appropriate for a Gay man to bring his partner to said event.

This is not to say I don't think he should be a member of the lodge, but homosexual conduct is not an accepted practice within the Masonic Community. That's where it falls along the line of "Don't ask, Don't tell".

There again, this is just my own opinion.

Would you be okay if you had to leave the person you loved most at home while you went to the Christmas party?
Many men if not most believe Lodge to be a place for men only. When I asked if we could get a few things at Lodge for the kids and wife to do @ Lodge I was told this is not a place for women and children, but in a much more direct way. Even though the majority in my Lodge frown on women and children up there that does not stop me from bringing them nor should it stop a gay man or woman from brining their soul mate. We all have the right to have our own prerogatives and believes and Masonry is designed to strengthen those for you but we are still required to meet on the level with all kinds of opinions.

 

[JTM]

For once, I chose to keep my big mouth (fingers?) out of this conversation for a while so that I could think about it again.

For me it's as simple as this. What if you found out an already master mason was a brother? Would you bring charges? Would you keep him out of lodge? Would you bring it up in lodge, and under what auspice?

Peace and harmony must prevail in a lodge, and I figure anything that unnecessarily breaks that is more of a transgression than being gay in lodge. I'm sure there are many good (gay) men out there, and some need help to become better.

 

[Nate Riley]

For once, I chose to keep my big mouth (fingers?) out of this conversation for a while so that I could think about it again.

For me it's as simple as this. What if you found out an already master mason was a brother? Would you bring charges? Would you keep him out of lodge? Would you bring it up in lodge, and under what auspice?

Peace and harmony must prevail in a lodge, and I figure anything that unnecessarily breaks that is more of a transgression than being gay in lodge. I'm sure there are many good (gay) men out there, and some need help to become better.

That was my thought. If bringing his lover around the lodge causes a disruption in the peace and harmony, then its a problem. The same would be true if my wife were a trouble maker, a drunk, etc. and disrupted the peace and harmony. I would expect the master or officers of the lodge to keep the peace and harmony.

Additionally, the lodge is no place for political or cultural statements.

 

[TCShelton]

That was my thought. If bringing his lover around the lodge causes a disruption in the peace and harmony, then its a problem. The same would be true if my wife were a trouble maker, a drunk, etc. and disrupted the peace and harmony. I would expect the master or officers of the lodge to keep the peace and harmony.

Yeah, but this same situation applies when a nonwhite petitions a lot of lodges as well. Some old guys get their feathers ruffled about "not sitting in lodge with a..." What if a guy's spouse is black? Where's the difference as far as peace and harmony is concerned? Do we do what is blatantly wrong for the sake of peace and harmony? Or is it different when it is race and not sexuality?

 

[Nate Riley]

Yeah, but this same situation applies when a nonwhite petitions a lot of lodges as well. Some old guys get their feathers ruffled about "not sitting in lodge with a..." What if a guy's spouse is black? Where's the difference as far as peace and harmony is concerned? Do we do what is blatantly wrong for the sake of peace and harmony? Or is it different when it is race and not sexuality?

This will probably ruffle some feathers. I feel that sexuality, or at least the open practice thereof, is a matter of choice. Race is not.

 

[TCShelton]

This will probably ruffle some feathers. I feel that sexuality, or at least the open practice thereof, is a matter of choice. Race is not.

Either way, both are a matter of "peace and harmony," which was the reason for exclusion of homosexual partners from lodge functions.

 

[JTM]

Yeah, but this same situation applies when a nonwhite petitions a lot of lodges as well. Some old guys get their feathers ruffled about "not sitting in lodge with a..." What if a guy's spouse is black? Where's the difference as far as peace and harmony is concerned? Do we do what is blatantly wrong for the sake of peace and harmony? Or is it different when it is race and not sexuality?

yeh, there's a right and a wrong way to do things. i'm the "throw it in their face and have them eat it" kind of guy. doesn't really always work out though, even though i feel like it should.

 

[TCShelton]

yeh, there's a right and a wrong way to do things.

I'm listening. As far as I am concerned, peace and harmony is peace and harmony. If it only applies in certain situations, it is a cop out.

 

[JTM]

i agree. it's a cop out. to preserve peace and harmony.

i'm the kind of guy to walk in the room and slam the gavel. being 6'7'', sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. alienating some lodges so that they'll suddenly figure it all out and we'll magically have peace and harmony isn't going to fix it, though.

there's always something that'll mess it up. if not homosexuality, then race, if not that, then something else.

edit: then when i think about that, it's a cop out as well. i'm with shelton.

 

[ljlinson1206]

OK, it seems I may have upset some people with my previous statements. This was not my intention.

Before continuing, let me say that my views and opinions are my own and not a reflection of any other Brother or Lodge.

The point I was trying to get across and apparently didn't was that in the culture in which we live in, that being TX, openly being gay has not been socially accepted. It is more so than in the past and is seen more openly in present time, but seeing the affections of two people of the same sex is has not been socially accepted.

Think about this. You walk through the grocery store and see a man and woman kiss or give each other an affectionate hug, noone thinks twice or pays attention or even cares. Some people would even say "oh, look how cute". See the same thing with two people of the same sex and now it's morally unacceptable. Again, this is within the culture and social acceptance of Central TX. I cannot speak about other areas. I'm sure in some places and states it is viewed differently, but here we have not "caught up with the times". Even in Bryan/College Station, you don't see it as much as you would in say Austin or Houston, within certain areas. The same used to be true with innerracial couples, but as time goes by and we begin to see more, it becomes more socially accepted. "Dumb Rednecks" don't frown upon it any longer and it becomes the norm. That's the point I was trying to get across.

All that being said, Let me give you a bit of my history. I have a daughter who is gay and a granddaughter that is half black. Her father being black was not her decision and cannot be undone. My daughter being gay is a chioce, not a faith. I love both of them very dearly. I accept my daughters chioce of being gay and I've seen her with her partner. I do not agree with her chioce, but I do accept her for her. I will not shun her or disown her because of her decision no more than I would if she was a crack addict. But there again, It is a chioce.

So in closing, I was trying to say that within the confines of the area I'm from, Central TX, it would not be socially accepted. There are no bylaws or charters that state that if you are gay you cannot participate of have your significant other participate within lodge functions. As time passes and it becomes more prevelant, I think it will become common place. I hope this will clear things up a little.

 

[Dredd17]

Wow, this is a hot topic with a lot of views. Here's my thought on such issues. What peoples personal likes or beliefs is theirs to have. I do my best to try not to judge those who dont believe the same things that I do. However, I do not try to force my beliefs on others. I believe in the peace and harmony of the lodge as much as the next guy. I do not believe that a Mason should intentionaly push his sexual or racial rights on the lodge just because he can. Just because you have the right to do something doesnt necessarily mean that its the right thing to do when it comes to the big picture. I have been a police officer for 14 years. There were several times in my career where I could have shot and killed someone. The law gave me the right to do so, however it was not necessarily the best solution to the problem. So back to what I was getting at, for example IF I was a homosexual, I would think twice about bringing my partner around/openingly displaying my sexual preference. Not because I would not be allowed, but because in the big picture I know it would cause problems within the lodge. Those actions could cause a major rift in the brotherhood of that lodge. I would have gained nothing but to make a point that didnt have to be made. Some things just dont need to be aired out in the lodge. As Masons we should strive to be tolerant and accepting of others that dont have the same beliefs as us.

 

[TCShelton]

My daughter being gay is a chioce...

I think that is where a lot of the problems come about. Some say it is a choice, others don't. Unfortunately, right now that can't be proven. I for one, do not believe it is a choice. All humor aside, I can't fathom why someone would WANT to be gay. That concept just doesn't seem appealing to me in the least, and I cannot foresee how it could be a choice.

Brother, I understand what you are saying about a gay couple not being accepted in many parts of the state. However, a lot of those same parts don't accept interracial couples either. I am not a fan of watching a gay couple make out in public, but neither am I a fan of watching a hetero couple make out in public. I think all relationships should be carried out in a tasteful manner while in public, gay or straight.

 

[JTM]

if i had to pick one, i'd say being gay can be a choice in some cases, and i'm sure there are genes out there that would incline you to be more or less gay than other people. i'm also positive it's not an on-off switch like blue or green eyes, but more of a sliding scale.

if gay were in your genes, it would be selected against, unless there is some evolutionary advantage to being gay. it may be like the case sickle cell anemia, where by itself, sickle cell anemia is bad, but with malaria around, it saves you. perhaps there's some trick to why gay genes stick around, but I still really have no reason to believe that besides speculation.

 

[rhitland]

So back to what I was getting at, for example IF I was a homosexual, I would think twice about bringing my partner around/openingly displaying my sexual preference. Not because I would not be allowed, but because in the big picture I know it would cause problems within the lodge. Those actions could cause a major rift in the brotherhood of that lodge. I would have gained nothing but to make a point that didnt have to be made. Some things just dont need to be aired out in the lodge. As Masons we should strive to be tolerant and accepting of others that dont have the same beliefs as us.

This is why gay men probably will not join in mass b/c they have to hide who they are to be accepted. I am not sure what point a gay man is trying to make when he brings a loved one to a function I can only think he is trying to make the point he loves somebody. Now if we are talking malicious in your face sexual behavior that would not be tolerated by no one in my lodge straight or gay.
Making people feel comfortable at the cost of right is not a good way to build a solid lodge.
If being gay is natural or a choice I am not sure how this plays into the conversation at hand. What is the difference if it is a choice or not how does that play into us meeting on the level.
When the word gay is mentioned I think everybody goes to extremes and thinks of some flaming queen half dressed in drag but this is not the case. Most men and women that are gay are not in your face about it but nor do they try to hide it. They have a right to love whom they want and do as they please in this country and as Masons we have a job to make them feel welcome in our Lodge if they are good men.

 

[ljlinson1206]

I know we are WAY off subject now, but let me put it this way.

If one of your lodge members in his middle ages, someone you have known for years, got divorced and then began dating a 17 year old in high school, would that not raise some eyebrows within your lodge? It is completely "LEGAL". But in this area not socially acceptable. Perhaps one day it will be, but not this day. And before you say that doesn't happen, I've had parents call me and ask what they can do about this. No lodge members thank goodness, but and olderman and a teenage girl none the less. And you can't say it's not the same, because when you get right down to the heart of the question it's all about what is socially acceptable to the area in which you are from. How one is raised and what they are taught.

Just like the rise and fall of the economy, it starts in a certain area and moves across the nation until everyone is effected. So goes social boundries. What is acceptable in California right now is not in the south. Perhaps one day it will be but not at this time. This is the point some of us are trying to make. And just like Brother Ferrell/ Dredd stated, if a man knows he is going to cause problems in the lodge by taking his partner, why do it. Peace and harmony goes both ways.