Why is the north a place of darkness?

[coachn]

I learn something new almost every day on this forum.

The Trivium is the first three of the 7 liberal arts and sciences. The Quadrivium are the remaining four.

Without studying them, you shall not know symbolic thought as you could, you'll come to imagine all sorts of nonsense and you'll actually believe you know what you're talking about.

With them, you'll come to know God's creations.

 

[Ripcord22A]

Ive never heard it called that before

Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app

 

[coachn]

Ive never heard it called that before..

Good! Now you can't say that any more ;-)

 

[Warrior1256]

The Trivium is the first three of the 7 liberal arts and sciences. The Quadrivium are the remaining four.

Without studying them, you shall not know symbolic thought as you could, you'll come to imagine all sorts of nonsense and you'll actually believe you know what you're talking about.

With them, you'll come to know God's creations.

Thanks coachn.

Ive never heard it called that before

Same here. Now I know.

 

[dfreybur]

The problem is that morality can not be messured objectivly as morals change with the times.

The universe works by cause and effect. Statistically once you've learned Quantum Mechanics but those who focus on the exceptions at the atomic level miss the point that cause and effect always works at larger scales.

Ethics is cause and effect written onto human society. Where QM becomes exact to more and more decimal places as sizes grow, ethics still needs learning and understanding to reach that type of certainty.

Morality is a snapshot of the current culture's best effort at ethics.

Morals change with the time because they pursue a goal.

In our lectures we describe perfect character as possible to achieve but impractical to achieve. That's exactly how morality works. Ever working to improve, sometimes sliding back by error.

 

[dfreybur]

Which is literal and which symbolic is very often a problem for the speculative Freemason.

Because any good allegory teaches truth. Because people want stories that teach truth to be truth. It just does not work that way.

Others want stories that are fiction to not teach truth. Debunkers tend to want to debunk everything about their target. It just does not work that ay.

 

[Elexir]

The universe works by cause and effect. Statistically once you've learned Quantum Mechanics but those who focus on the exceptions at the atomic level miss the point that cause and effect always works at larger scales.

Ethics is cause and effect written onto human society. Where QM becomes exact to more and more decimal places as sizes grow, ethics still needs learning and understanding to reach that type of certainty.

Morality is a snapshot of the current culture's best effort at ethics.

Morals change with the time because they pursue a goal.

In our lectures we describe perfect character as possible to achieve but impractical to achieve. That's exactly how morality works. Ever working to improve, sometimes sliding back by error.

The problem with your defention of ethics are that there are never just one form of ethics but rather different posistion to judge diffrent situations.

Your description of the perfect man is the reason I find make good men better. To live with dignity to die with honour is much better as capturing the essence of the work.

 

[dfreybur]

The problem with your defention of ethics are that there are never just one form of ethics but rather different posistion to judge diffrent situations.

Science includes relativity. The fact that it's hard does not make it not science. Should ethics ever make it through the mathematical transformation needed to become a physical science it would have to include relativity. For the moment ethics as a science remains far too much in the descriptive phase.

So yes, you describe the current status while I described the end goal.

 

[coachn]

Working Guidelines...

1. Laws are Causes & Effects that have been shown Not to Vary from Prediction and are based upon Past Results
2. Rules are Agreed upon Behaviors and Consequences, at least agreed upon by the rule makers
3. Ethics are Social Mores
4. Morality are Private Mores
5. Mores are Behaviors that Honor Values
6. Values are Things, Ideals, etc. thought to be Important.
7. Beliefs are Things, Ideals, etc. thought to be Real.

 

[Warrior1256]

Morality is a snapshot of the current culture's best effort at ethics.

Morals change with the time because they pursue a goal.

I agree. This is why that I have said that it is really not fair to judge people from the past by the morals of today.

 

[Bloke]

....Ethics is cause and effect written onto human society....

I like that brother and I think it will stick in my brain for a long time...

 

[Bloke]

Working Guidelines...

1. Laws are Causes & Effects that have been shown Not to Vary from Prediction and are based upon Past Results
2. Rules are Agreed upon Behaviors and Consequences, at least agreed upon by the rule makers
3. Ethics are Social Mores
4. Morality are Private Mores
5. Mores are Behaviors that Honor Values
6. Values are Things, Ideals, etc. thought to be Important.
7. Beliefs are Things, Ideals, etc. thought to be Real.

On 3 and 4 Coach, "private" would include any non-civic group such as a Church ?? What about a State Religion- is that a private or public more ?

Not sure I agree with "7, Beliefs are Things, Ideals, etc. thought to be Real." because I doubt so many of my beliefs and so strongly believe ( okay, sometimes believe) in my own stupidity and infallibility and that of others that "thought to be real" sees "real" as too strong a word. Most of my beliefs are subjective and not absolute

 

[coachn]

On 3 and 4 Coach, "private" would include any non-civic group such as a Church ??

Absolutely. When I think of "social", I am thinking of any unit of more than one person.

What about a State Religion- is that a private or public more ?

The thing is, a group can call mores public or private, but it's still not personal to just one person when more than one is involved. Perhaps "personal" rather than "private" would be a better choice as opposed to "social".

Not sure I agree with "7, Beliefs are Things, Ideals, etc. thought to be Real." because I doubt so many of my beliefs and so strongly believe ( okay, sometimes believe) in my own stupidity and infallibility and that of others that "thought to be real" sees "real" as too strong a word. Most of my beliefs are subjective and not absolute

Belief here is provided not as "faith"; although it can be.

Beliefs bring about values, which in turn brings about rules that honor those values and the behavior that follows to support those rules, which in turn move from personal mores (morality) to group mores (ethics). Do you see the train of thought?

 

[Bloke]

..... Do you see the train of thought?

Very clearly. I think values and beliefs are like the egg/chicken question.


I think a belief is just that. A belief is a belief and faith and belief are interchangeable. (?)

"...perrhaps "personal" rather than "private" would be a better choice as opposed to "social".

It is tricky. I think we need to distinguish between the collective and indervidual but the problem is how "social" does it need to before it's no longer "private" I think that's why a Church is a good one to through in the mix. Or maybe it's the willingness to adjust our position which needs to be considered when examining morality vrs ethics or the methodology to evaluate them or the criteria for the change? Dfreybur often has good thoughts on this. I like your list, but think it needs tweaking but feel it's really close to being spot on.

( currently typing 1 finger standing on a peak express train worried about being late... not ideal thinking conditions!!!)

 

[coachn]

Very clearly. I think values and beliefs are like the egg/chicken question.


I think a belief is just that. A belief is a belief and faith and belief are interchangeable. (?)

"...perrhaps "personal" rather than "private" would be a better choice as opposed to "social".

It is tricky. I think we need to distinguish between the collective and indervidual but the problem is how "social" does it need to before it's no longer "private" I think that's why a Church is a good one to through in the mix. Or maybe it's the willingness to adjust our position which needs to be considered when examining morality vrs ethics or the methodology to evaluate them or the criteria for the change? Dfreybur often has good thoughts on this. I like your list, but think it needs tweaking but feel it's really close to being spot on.

( currently typing 1 finger standing on a peak express train worried about being late... not ideal thinking conditions!!!)

I have no investment in the list other than wanting it to stir some thought. I am open to tweaking it if it improves its usefulness and "value" to those who care to use it.

I hold that faith is a choice to believe, regardless of evidence for or against. Belief can be chosen based upon perceived evidence too. In this respect, I see Faith as a subset of belief.

To further the morals vs ethics, perhaps using the word individual (morals) vs collective (ethics) is more spot on. I see the two are used interchangeably by others. I lean toward morals being what an individual has and ethics to be more of a group grope.

 

[Ripcord22A]

If the "working tools" can be used in a "moral" sense would that allow testing of social values for trueness to the GAOTU?

If so, Freemasonry, in possession of the genuine secrets, might actually be able make good people better in an absolute sense - rather than improve their conformity to the morality of their society.

Is that why Freemasonry's peculiar system of morality is veiled in allegory?

U don't actually use the tools...how the hell would u actually use a pair of compasses to keep ur self in check? Its just another Allegory to remind u to keep urself in checj

Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app

 

[Ripcord22A]

Nope no change cause inanimate objects dont effect thd way i feel

Sent from my LG-H918 using My Freemasonry mobile app

 

[Bloke]

Does that include your car?

Especially when its doesnt start !

I am always using the compasses (and 24 inch guage).... is that proposal within my skill and ability (and time)..

 

[Bloke]

I have no investment in the list other than wanting it to stir some thought. I am open to tweaking it if it improves its usefulness and "value" to those who care to use it.

I hold that faith is a choice to believe, regardless of evidence for or against. Belief can be chosen based upon perceived evidence too. In this respect, I see Faith as a subset of belief.

To further the morals vs ethics, perhaps using the word individual (morals) vs collective (ethics) is more spot on. I see the two are used interchangeably by others. I lean toward morals being what an individual has and ethics to be more of a group grope.

I agree with the above and like your list

Working Guidelines...

1. Laws are Causes & Effects that have been shown Not to Vary from Prediction and are based upon Past Result
   Note sure about this one... Laws are not always so scientific.. but it does work for the purpose
   
   
2. Rules are Agreed upon Behaviors and Consequences, at least agreed upon by the rule makers
   or
   Rules are Agreed upon Behaviors and perceived Consequences, at least agreed upon by the rule makers
   
   
3. Ethics are Social Mores
   Or
   Ethics are Social Mores held, discussed, adjusted and agreed by wider society.
   
   
4. Morality are Private Mores
   or
   Morality comprises Private Mores held by individuals and also specific groups of people sharing a common morality
   
   
5. Mores are Behaviors that Honor Values
6. Values are Things, Ideals, etc. thought to be Important.
   
   
7. Beliefs are Things, Ideals, etc. thought to be Real.
   Or
   Beliefs are Things, Ideals, etc. thought to be Real, true and/or right

I do love a good list Coach

 

[coachn]

Does that include your car?

Only when it is animated...