Women in masonry

Discussion in 'General Freemasonry Discussion' started by zouzoum, Apr 11, 2016.

  1. Joaben

    Joaben Registered User

    61
    5
    8
    @babyjo... The fact that sexist-masons explained to you that "Freemasonry deals with male energy" just mean that they are sexists. It is not an evidence ! And in opposition with FACTS ! Women practice masonery exactly the same way we do.
    Women were not permitted in army, police, religion, management before ! They are now !
    Mixt masonery (C-masonery, you say) is highly practiced in Europe without any problem of such kind.
    In your job, you have to work with women, no ?
     
  2. Ripcord22A

    Ripcord22A Site Benefactor

    3,330
    2,022
    183
    you are obviously an ANTImason I will not engage any longer and I suggest to my fellow brethren here do the same
     
  3. dfreybur

    dfreybur Premium Member

    3,935
    2,388
    133
    Because our fore-bearers led the world in freedom and equal treatment so people jump to an incorrect conclusion. Equal treatment to us means women are completely welcome to have their own orders that exclude men.

    Because we are universal in terms of race, creed, national origin, religion, that we must also be universal in terms of gender.

    It's not difficult to figure why folks ask if we take women.

    To me the hard part is why other orders that are single gender don't get singled out as we are. I actually have no idea if other excluding orders are singled out or not. I see the questions aimed at Masonry because I am active in lodges. I can't off the top of my head name orders that are exclusive to women. Plus I don't any of those orders are anywhere near our size so we make a much larger target.
     
    babyjo likes this.
  4. babyjo

    babyjo Premium Member

    15
    2
    3
    It is obvious to me that @Joaben is upset and that was not my intention. So despite @jdmadsenCraterlake211 's suggestion, I have posted a reply below.

    To answer your question about the workplace, I wouldn't put it as 'have to' work with women. I quite enjoy a diversified workplace. I don't understand how anything I wrote was sexist. I'm sorry if you feel that I was told this by 'sexist Masons.' It was actually a woman who explained to me that Freemasonry is male energy work, not a Mason. My interest in and study of the Occult stretches far beyond the Light of Freemasonry. But outside of that conversation, I have never actually discussed the reason why women are not 'allowed' to be Masons. As I mentioned, a few women have been made Masons. I also stated that Masonry is not specifically intended for all women. I didn't say anything against women joining, as there are some Lodges that DO permit women to join. I don't see the value in having a firm opinion on the issue, nor did I state that I have a firm opinion on the subject. I'm sorry if what I wrote made you upset, as it was not my intention to do so. I have no interest in perpetuating sexism, but a Fraternity is historically a group of men who meet. I have seldom felt the need to question that further. This thread interested me for that exact reason. Thinking that I am among Masons, and therefore free to express myself without ridicule, I was willing to share my perspective. The last thing I hoped for was to cause disharmony in the thread. Being a Mason, I have no problem entertaining a difference of opinion. I can only speak to what I have experienced, seem to know and understand, and what I am told. I have never demanded to join a Sorority. I'm not sure what would happen if I were to do so. The only thing keeping me from doing so is probably the fact that I respect the fact that those women want a place to congregate without men. Just as most Masons want a place to congregate without women. Please accept my sincere apology in expressing what I thought to be a benign opinion.
     
  5. Ripcord22A

    Ripcord22A Site Benefactor

    3,330
    2,022
    183
    So here is my take on it....In schools and other public actions there are seperate but equal activities. There is baseball for boys and softball for girls, boys track events, girls track events, male Martial arts divions and female martial arts divisons, for activities where there is no alternative boys can participate in predominately female activies( volleyball, cheerleading ect) and girls vice versa (football, wrestling). Same with masonry...thgere are all female and mixed gender lodges. I acknowledge their existence and regularity of work(in most cases) however we are not part of the same family brach....more like inlaws,,,,,IE i wouldnt go to my brothers wifes family reunion same as a comason or female only member cant come to my lodge and vice versa!
     
    babyjo likes this.
  6. JamestheJust

    JamestheJust Registered User

    1,687
    518
    113
    The format of modern Masonry is substantially derived from that of Mithraism - for example both have 3 working tools per degree.

    Mithraic lodges were largely military and hence male only.



    And with the loss of the genuine secrets, the inner working was lost for the FPoF. Verb. sap.
     
  7. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

    2,082
    2,079
    133
    <snicker> what secrets?
     
  8. Bloke

    Bloke Premium Member

    4,309
    3,036
    133
    Indeed.
     
    coachn likes this.
  9. JamestheJust

    JamestheJust Registered User

    1,687
    518
    113
    Mathew 7:7 seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you;

    Mathew 13:12 whoever hath not, even that which he hath shall be taken from him.
     
  10. JamestheJust

    JamestheJust Registered User

    1,687
    518
    113

    These days there is an inner game for almost everything: cricket, tennis, music, wealth, work, motorcycles ...

    But not Masonry. Masonry has really lost it.
     
  11. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

    2,082
    2,079
    133
    Freemasonry perhaps, but not Masonry; ever.

    This who practice the former, think the real secrets are lost forever.

    Those who practice the later, have them.
     
    Ripcord22A likes this.
  12. Joaben

    Joaben Registered User

    61
    5
    8
    @dfreibur : What you say about freedom for women, was called in South Africa APARTHEID.
    It is silly, soory ! Have you any right or concession to leave anyone found their own order ? No ! Anybody can found their order ! You may not recognize them ! That is your sole power !
    @jdmadsenCraterlake211 : you can say, you do not like me and do not want to exchange with me ... This a bit capricious. Anti-mason ? Because I disgree with yor sexism ? ?
    @babyjo : not upset at all ! I undestand you point ! I thought the same during years ! Tell that to the ones who do not want to exchange anymore(the agression by the mirror) ...sexism means discrimination depending on sex. When you say you do not want to practice masonery together with women you are in this case. It does not change if you say they can practice elsewhere. They do ! They don't wait for your autorisation !(fortunately).
    "I have never actually discussed the reason why women are not 'allowed' to be Masons." ...sorry but wrong subject ! Women are free to practice masonery ! The only problem is YOURS ... why you apply a false (but deeply in the minds) criteria to practice masonery together. Racist in South Africa were sure of the well-founded.
    There were historical, sociological, economical reasons in 18th century for sexual discrimination as well as slavery.
    You have to ask yoursel YOUR reasons to ractice sexism ... in freemasony when the first founders, masons, of America stated Independance Act, becoming Human Rights later.
    I have been 15 years mason in a sexist Grand-Lodge ... I know after these years that apartheid appears natural.
    About the word "fraternity", we practice masonery with exactly same rituals than UGLE, without taking into account the sex of the mason. And this is called "Universal Fraternity" ! To explain my point try to meditate about what is the link betwenne brethren behind the word "fraternity" Anything to do with sex ? I think NO ! That'ts why I think we need to ban sexism in freemasonery !
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2016
  13. Joaben

    Joaben Registered User

    61
    5
    8
    This is what was called APARTHEID !
     
  14. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

    2,082
    2,079
    133
    It's called "choice" and "freedom of association" granted and accepted by the laws and people of the land in acknowledgement of a free society.

    It's legal, it's moral and it's ethical, unless you are attempting to prove a point that has nothing to do with the reason for the rule, then it becomes anything you care to distort it to be. You can complain and label it anyway your chose to; it does not make what you claim a fact.

    BTW - APARTHEID is so much more. You can't mislead educated minds with charged words that echo inhumanity, injustice and social classism.
     
    Ripcord22A likes this.
  15. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

    2,082
    2,079
    133
    Just because you don't know something, doesn't make it a secret. It just means that you don't know enough.
     
    Ripcord22A likes this.
  16. Joaben

    Joaben Registered User

    61
    5
    8
    Nobody denies your right. And apartheid was legal in South Africa, as well as slavery in Europe and America, as well as human sacrifices at other times. All that defended by "educated minds" ...
    Instead of taking offense, easy way to escape confrontation ... :
    Apartheid was "separate devolpment" of black and white people.
    Your apartheid does not target skin colour, but sex of people.
    In some ways it is worse than apartheid ... Some appears denying the ability of women to be freemasons !!!
    Don't forget that some Grand Lodges in Europe have been condemned for sectarism(does not concern yet sexism, but it can come).
    I understand you don't like facing the dark reality of sexism in mainstream freemasonery. Sorry to be FREE-mason !
    Accept to be FREE-mason et go further in your claim : If you claim "freedom", a lodge must be free of its criteria of acceptance. All masonic rituals mention the same criteria fo "How do I recognize you as a mason ?" You know the answer ! Nothing to do with sex !
     
  17. coachn

    coachn Coach John S. Nagy Premium Member

    2,082
    2,079
    133
    You are clearly operating at a disadvantage and under a delusion.

    I am far from offended. I'm mildly amused at your simpleton efforts.

    There is no "development" going on within the Society other than cultivating actors who continue the show.

    There is no denial of females to become Freemasons; they have two options at their disposal that they can partake of and from what I here, more seriously too. They are banned from the fraternal choice because the members of the fraternal organization have the right to do so.

    Your insistence that there exists a dark reality of sexism only reveals your distorted dark view. It is your view; it is not the reality.

    Endlessly calling it "apartheid" no less makes it so than calling members of the organization "Masons". Both are labels and neither are based upon any resemblance of reality.

    You have no idea what "Free-mason" means and your ignorance shows at levels that are ear popping.
     
    Ripcord22A and tldubb like this.
  18. Joaben

    Joaben Registered User

    61
    5
    8
    @coachn ... dont speculate about imaginary "delusion" to try to weaken others. please no fox-news here ! I am very happy to work in masonery out of sexual apartheid.
    Some on this forum deny the ability of women to be freemason. If it is not your case, I congratulate you for this small progress.
    What you describe is clearly APARTHEID, even if the word has a very bad reputation.
    Women are not BANNED from fraternal choice ! YOUR ORGANISATION BAN them. In other fraternal organisation they (and we) live a freemasonery free from your sexism.
    You have decided YOURSELF that masonery must be sexist. And you have difficulty to assume the reality of your apartheid (read the definition on wikipedia instead of protesting). Yes black people were banned to go in the SAME BUS than white people. White people dont deny black to take the bus ... but not with them ... Exactly like you !
    You can off course agress me and deny me my freemasonery ... another point that proves that you ignore even the basics ("How do I recognize you as a mason ?"). May be your pride is enough for you to auto-proclaim you as a mason allowed to revoke masonic tri-centenary rules for recognition of masons ?
     
  19. Joaben

    Joaben Registered User

    61
    5
    8
    In the oldest english rituals, we read : "how many sorts of masons ? Two ! The freemasons and the buiding workers !" Is it what you mean ?
     
  20. Travelling Man91

    Travelling Man91 Registered User

    983
    393
    63
    If you don't mind me asking, are you a believer of the Mormon faith ?
     

Share My Freemasonry