Women in masonry

[Joaben]

Definitions of FRATERNITY :
1. A body of people associated for a common purpose or interest, such as a guild.
2. A group of people joined by similar backgrounds, occupations, interests, or tastes: the fraternity of bird watchers.
3. A social organization at a college or university, traditionally consisting of male students and designated by Greek letters.
4. Roman Catholic Church A sodality.
5. The quality or condition of being brothers; brotherliness.

Except the male STUDENTS, not relevant with our discussion ... nothing to do with masculine ...

 

[coachn]

apartheid
1: racial segregation; specifically: a former policy of segregation and political and economic discrimination against non-European groups in the Republic of South Africa
a rigid former policy of segregating and economically and politically OPPRESSING the nonwhite population.

@coachn are we oppressing women by not allowing them in our boys club?

No. Furthermore, we are not appressing, depressing, expressing, suppressing, prepressing, repressing, or impressing them either.

 

[Ripcord22A]

@coachn You ever find yourself in NM let me know....Id Like to buy you lunch and pick your brain about Freemasonry.

Ive told a few brothers here in my lodge and valley how you make the distinction that Freemasonry is what we do in the lodge and Masonry is what we do in our selves. None of us had thought of it like that but have started applying that thought process~

 

[coachn]

@coachn You ever find yourself in NM let me know....Id Like to buy you lunch and pick your brain about Freemasonry.

Will Do! Thanks for letting me know the door is open and the brew and stew await within.

Ive told a few brothers here in my lodge and valley how you make the distinction that Freemasonry is what we do in the lodge and Masonry is what we do in our selves. None of us had thought of it like that but have started applying that thought process~

Awesome! Have you had the chance to read the articles on the distinctions on my blog?

 

[Joaben]

No. Furthermore, we are not appressing, depressing, expressing, suppressing, prepressing, repressing, or impressing them either.

Nobody says that you assaninate, oppress women ... only recall THE FACTS(based on definition) you practice sexism and apartheid against women in your view of freemasonery. I suppose that you are a gentleman at home ...
White apartheid power in South Africa never ban blacks to go on the beach ... just to ban them from the same beach than white people ...

 

[Joaben]

Will Do! Thanks for letting me know the door is open and the brew and stew await within.
Awesome! Have you had the chance to read the articles on the distinctions on my blog?

If you use these words to distinguish these to aspects of free(?)masonery why not ?

 

[Joaben]

@coachn : your dream of delusion just engage your feeling ...
I understand that you want to practice apartheid, but do not assume it ! Of course, you accept(you have no other choice) that women practice masonery in another "territory" than yours.
The words "sexist" and "apartheid" have a definition in the dictionnary.
"sexist" mean discrimination based on sex. And obviously you discriminate the entrance in your meetings based on sex of the freemson.
What Hitler has to do with that ??? ... Have you reached Goldwin point ?
I just mention South African apartheid. And I point the similarity with your own apartheid.
You can danse and laugh, coachn, to hide the facts I pointed to you ...
"Free" means too "frank", "sincere", "direct" !
Do you deny the tri-centenary recognition of freemasons ? Another pirouette or quasi-insult is not an answer !
"Only if you are inside my jurisdiction." you said ? sorry but angry and silly answer ... If I am "inside" there is no more question !
But I am very ashamed for you that you apparently ignore the basics of recognition betwenn masons ... May be you feel too "high" ?

 

[coachn]

Nobody says that you assaninate, oppress women ... only recall THE FACTS(based on definition) you practice sexism and apartheid against women in your view of freemasonery. I suppose that you are a gentleman at home ...
White apartheid power in South Africa never ban blacks to go on the beach ... just to ban them from the same beach than white people ...

You truly do need to get a life.

 

[Joaben]

FYI - Reading this thread is so much more enjoyable if you have clicked "ignore" on the right people!

yes ! Do you know ostrich politics ?(to bury one's head in the sand) ?

 

[Joaben]

You truly do need to get a life.

My "poor" coachn(sorry, but regarding your disdain), I understand that the lack of arguments drives you to insults. Normally, FM must bring you to self-control, respect. But as you have missed the basics ("how to recognize a freemason?") I understand your behavior ...
May be we can place the discussion on a more mutual respect ?

 

[coachn]

@coachn : your dream of delusion just engage your feeling ...
I understand that you want to practice apartheid, but do not assume it ! Of course, you accept(you have no other choice) that women practice masonery in another "territory" than yours.

No. You only believe that I want to practice something that you are labeling as "apartheid". Your assumptions are incorrect.

The words "sexist" and "apartheid" have a definition in the dictionnary. (SIC)

Apartheid has already been defined and shown to not support your claims.

sexism definition. The belief that one sex (usually the male) is naturally superior to the other and should dominate most important areas of political, economic, and social life. Sexist discrimination in the United States in the past has denied opportunities to women in many spheres of activity.

What I engage in does not support any of these definitions. Your claims are invalid.

"sexist" mean discrimination based on sex.

But we are not having sex here. We are just socializing with men. Your claim is invalid.

And onviously you discriminate the entrance in your meetings based on sex of the freemson.

LOL! The more pumped up you get, the worse your grammar gets.

I could not care less what sex our members are having as long as it is not during our meetings.

What Hitler has to do with that ...

Exactly as much as your comments about racism and sexism and just as valid.

I just mention South African apartheid. And I point the similarity with your own apartheid.

You're seeing imaginary things and attempting to make points. Your points and your efforts are not valid.

You can danse and laugh, coachn, to hide the facts I pointed to you ...

I dance and laugh not to hide facts but to avoid stepping in the rich fertilizer that you spread upon my path.

"Free" means too "frank", "sincere", "direct" !

Yes, but it does not apply as a suitable meaning here and your definition is not within context. You can read more here: http://www.coach.net/BuildingFreeMen.htm Education awaits!

Do you deny the tri-centenary recognition of freemasons ? Another pirouette or quasi-insult is not an answer !

I have no clue as to what you are seeking by your cryptic question. I can say though that I shall not be present to the masonic making of a madman or fool. We're pretty tight on this in my jurisdiction. I'm thinking your jurisdiction may be a little more relaxed on this.

"Only if you are inside my jurisdiction." you said ? sorry but angry and silly answer ... If I am "inside" there is no more question !

But you are not inside, and hence your point is mote and your efforts are invalid.

But I am very ashamed for you that you apparently ignore the basics of recognition betwenn masons ... May be you feel too "high" ?

You can claim membership, but until you begin to actually display Masonic Character and reveal Sane Thinking, I shall remain suspicious, cautions and distant to and from your ranting and raving.

 

[Ripcord22A]

Will Do! Thanks for letting me know the door is open and the brew and stew await within.


Awesome! Have you had the chance to read the articles on the distinctions on my blog?

I have not, no. Ive read some of your posts but not recently

 

[coachn]

I have not, no. Ive read some of your posts but not recently

Thanks Bro. Here's a few to start you out:

Masonry vs Freemasonry: http://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2014/01/the-coaches-coach-drawing-distinctions.html
Operative vs Speculative: http://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2014/05/the-coaches-coach-drawing-distinctions.html
Accepted vs Admitted: http://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2014/07/building-free-men-chapter-iv-accepting.html
Freemasonry-Masonry Primer: http://buildinghiram.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-coaches-coach-freemasonry-masonry.html

Enjoy!

John

 

[Joaben]

@coachn : Please give wher you find your definition of sexism ... I prefer the facts :
(http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sexism):

1. prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women
2. behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex
   (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/sexism) :

1 attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of gender roles.
2.discrimination OR devaluation based on a person's sex or gender, as in restricted job opportunities, especially such discrimination directed against women.
3.ingrained and institutionalized prejudice against or hatred of women ;

Can you accept, coachn, that I base my writings on dictionnary definition, not your desires ?
I have given the accurate exemples showing that you militate for apartheid of women in FM. I undersand that you do not assume. OK !
YOU write about Hitler ! Not me ! Assume ! Dont involve me with your affirmations ...
I did not talk about racism neither ! Dont argue againt what I never said, please !
Obviously you ignore the basics of "how to recognize someone as a freemason"! ... nothing cryptic ! You use York ritual, I suppose ? You have the direct answer during the ceremony of initiation (just after the obligation) ... A shame to have to recall you that ! Do you feel too "high" to listen at what is taught to new entered apprentices ? Apparently your arrogance has replaced basics of freemasonery !
So, reading your words and such ignorance compensated by arrogance, your appreciation of what is "sane" for you gives me same effect than ... I do not want to be as crude as you ...

 

[coachn]

@coachn: Please give wher you find your definition of sexism ...

Nah. A simple search will reveal it.

Full Definition of sexism(http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sexism)

1. prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women
2. behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex
   (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/sexism)

3 attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of gender roles.
4.discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex or gender, as in restricted job opportunities, especially such discrimination directed against women.
5.ingrained and institutionalized prejudice against or hatred of women ;

As per each of your offered definitions:
1. We are not having sex. We simply want to get together with other males, leave females out of our activities and are exercising our right to freedom of association. Your definition is invalid.
2. We exhibit no "behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex". We simply want to get together with other males, leave females out of our activities and are exercising our right to freedom of association. Your definition is invalid.
3. Our choice to do so has nothing to do with "attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of gender roles". We simply want to get together with other males, leave females out of our activities and are exercising our right to freedom of association. Your definition is invalid.
4. We have no "discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex or gender, as in restricted job opportunities, especially such discrimination directed against women". We simply want to get together with other males, leave females out of our activities and are exercising our right to freedom of association. Your definition is invalid.
5. We have no "ingrained and institutionalized prejudice against or hatred of women". We simply want to get together with other males, leave females out of our activities and are exercising our right to freedom of association. Your definition is invalid.

It must be so frustrating for you to continually see that your points are moot and invalid.

Can you accept, coachn, that I base my writings on dictionnary definition, not your desires ?

Yes. I can accept that you base your writings, rants and raves upon unsuitable and inappropriate dictionary definitions.

I have given the accurate exemples showing that you militate for apartheid of women in FM. I undersand that you do not assume. OK !

I'm not seeing it. But then again, my imagination is not as creative as yours.

YOU write about Hitler ! Assume ! Dont mix me with your affirmations ...

Oh! So now you say that I can't take the same creative liberties that you take? Hurumph to you!

I did not talk about racism neither ! Dont argue againt what I never said please !

<cough> Really? Then tell me how your comment "White apartheid power in South Africa never ban blacks to go on the beach ... just to ban them from the same beach than white people ..." is NOT talking about RACISM? and please try to keep a straight face while you do.

Obviously you ignore the basics of "how to recognize someone as a freemason"... nothing cryptic ! You use York ritual, I suppose ?

I ignore the basics of nothing, freemasonic or otherwise. If you're spouting non-sense, it's pretty basic, you're spouting non-sense. York ritual is not required. Only common sense. However, if I am dealing with someone who can't comprehend the basics, it's a whole different hand-basket.

You have the direct answer during the ceremony of initiation (just after the obligation) ...

But we are not in lodge and you are not exhibiting the sanity one should expect of properly a vetted petitioner or an initiated member...

A shame to have to recall that !

Your bar is not raised high enough on this.

But apparently your arrogance has replaced basics of freemasonery !

What you take to be arrogance is your inability to comprehend the basics.

So, reading your words and such ignorance compensated by arrogance, your appreciation of what is "sane" for you gives me same effect than ... I do not want to be as crude as you ...

Good. Set that bar higher then and have at it. We could all use an improvement in your contribution.

 

[Bloke]

That'ts why I think we need to ban sexism in freemasonery !

I doubt very much there is a "we" in the sense of you bring a regular Freemason. If you are, all well and good, but you must come from an interesting lodge and had an interesting masonic experience, probably, and I am sorry to say, less positive that I've had...... If you're a "co-freemason", then "we" as in your peak body and its lodges have banned "sexism" in lodges because you admit women and you've solved the problem you're presenting and you've done it over 100 years ago, way before woman achieved basic rights like holding property and voting. Nice to think Freemasons did that

I respect that females want women only gyms, birthing circles, and other female only groups (including groups like The Honourable Fraternity of Ancient Freemasons and Honourable Order of Womens Freemasons - awesome and well done ladies ! Every and high success to them !!!). I respect women's rights to have such organisation because being a Freemason who works under a male only GL, I understand the special and open social atmosphere such an environment creates and I've seen men open up, have quality and unique exchanges and behave in positive ways in a male only lodge I have never seen anywhere else.

 

[Glen Cook]

If you don't mind me asking, are you a believer of the Mormon faith ?

Yes, I am LDS.

 

[Joaben]

I doubt very much there is a "we" in the sense of you bring a regular Freemason. If you are, all well and good, but you must come from an interesting lodge and had an interesting masonic experience, probably, and I am sorry to say, less positive that I've had...... If you're a "co-freemason", then "we" as in your peak body and its lodges have banned "sexism" in lodges because you admit women and you've solved the problem you're presenting and you've done it over 100 years ago, way before woman achieved basic rights like holding property and voting. Nice to think Freemasons did that
I respect that females want women only gyms, birthing circles, and other female only groups (including groups like The Honourable Fraternity of Ancient Freemasons and Honourable Order of Womens Freemasons - awesome and well done ladies ! Every and high success to them !!!). I respect women's rights to have such organisation because being a Freemason who works under a male only GL, I understand the special and open social atmosphere such an environment creates and I've seen men open up, have quality and unique exchanges and behave in positive ways in a male only lodge I have never seen anywhere else.

Your reaction is really strange. Where do you find in our basic principles that FREEmasons must agree in all sutuations wwith the positions of the headquarters ? This is a dictatory, not freemasonery. Arrogance seems the main engine of some groups here, which is far from freemasonery : Typically how can you pretend have a "more positive experience" than me ??? Just pretention, so !
When you see that som ignore the basics of freemasonery ("how do you recognize a freemason ?" ) ....
I do not deny that tou are a honourable citizen ... Just I see, read that you are proud to practice sexism and a masonic apartheid.
It is typical too that you think as a "concession" that women can work in freemasonery ... Women can practice, you have nothing to concede !
Apparently you ave not practiced in a non-sexist lodge. So, how can you compare or criticize ?
I have been 18 years in sexist-masonery, I still work in sexist lodges. And 10 years in non-sexist lodges. So I KNOW both. There are rich(and poor) exchanges in both of them ! When you practice masonery, you don't care about the sex.
All of my brothers who have left the sexist masonery say the same : They were conditionned ...
Another point is that men like to exchange dirty jokes during the meals. I can ensure you that women too. So, no trouble with that ! The ones who like that will go on. The only thing is they risk to have a reply from female freemasons ... And many are not very couragous.
Apparently, you have missed something : Sexism and masonic aparteid is not definitive ! YOU CAN CHANGE and abandon this practice. Army, police, some religions leave sexis ! YES, YOU CAN !
In freemasonery, in Europe, sexism is less and less strong : Even UGLE announce for 2017 that they wont ban visiting female lodges !

 

[Joaben]

York ritual is not required. Only common sense. However, if I am dealing with someone who can't comprehend the basics, it's a whole different hand-basket.
What you take to be arrogance is your inability to comprehend the basics.
Good. Set that bar higher then and have at it. We could all use an improvement in your contribution.

You demonstrate your typical arrogance : You decide that your auto-proclaimed "common sense" prevail on masonic rituals to decide "how do you recognize a freemason" : It gives an idea where you place what you pretend freemasonery.
OK !... as ALL arrogant, you pretend other one not at your level ... strange freemasonery ... Dont you sing the closing ode : "Humbly now ..." ?
Have you forgotten too that HUMILITY is another value of freemasonery ?
Apparently, you have completly lost any reflexion : Of course previous white south african gov. was racist ! Did I say you are ? No ! I do not know your position and do not want to know !
You apply clearly sexism and claim an ban not on black people but on women in freemasonery. Do you undersatnd the meaning of the word "example" just to help you to understand teh meaning of "apartheid" ? It is not a question of "right" (courts will decide if needed) but of morality and image of our freemasonery !
"I ignore the basics of nothing, " you said ... any freemason accept that he does not know everything and he can progress. Arrogant, no !
It is a fact that you are enable to answer a so basic question in freemasonery.
Before I put the bar higher for you, try to pass the question above of entered apprentice degree.
Freemasonery is "progression" another thing you learn at entered apprentice level. Forgotten too ?
Do you think what yo display here is '"sane", coach n ?

 

[coachn]

You demonstrate your typical arrogance : You decide that your auto-proclaimed "common sense" prevail on masonic rituals to decide "how do you recognize a freemason" : It gives an idea where you place what you pretend freemasonery.
OK !... as ALL arrogant, you pretend other one not at your level ... strange freemasonery ... Dont you sing the closing ode : "Humbly now ..." ?
Have you forgotten too that HUMILITY is another value of freemasonery ?
Apparently, you have completly lost any reflexion : Of course previous white south african gov. was racist ! Did I say you are ? No ! I do not know your position and do not want to know !
You apply clearly sexism and claim an ban not on black people but on women in freemasonery. Do you undersatnd the meaning of the word "example" just to help you to understand teh meaning of "apartheid" ? It is not a question of "right" (courts will decide if needed) but of morality and image of our freemasonery !
"I ignore the basics of nothing, " you said ... any freemason accept that he does not know everything and he can progress. Arrogant, no !
It is a fact that you are enable to answer a so basic question in freemasonery.
Before I put the bar higher for you, try to pass the question above of entered apprentice degree.
Freemasonery is "progression" another thing you learn at entered apprentice level. Forgotten too ?
Do you think what yo display here is '"sane", coach n ?

Arrogance has to do with self-importance and believing the rules don't apply to the self. The focus has never been upon me or the rules applying to me. It has from the beginning been about the unimportance of your dribble and how your imagination has caused you to rant and rave in superfluous and harmful ways.
Your latest response continues this trend.
When you start making sense, I shall continue. Until such time, I shall go back to ignoring your dribble. I no longer desire to exercise my communication skills if there is nothing new that you have to offer. Time to move on.