Women in masonry

[Joaben]

@coachn : You decide yourself that my comments are "nimportance of your dribble and how your imagination has caused you to rant and rave in superfluous and harmful ways."
This is typically arrogance ! I am a man, freemason and you have no right to pretend be above me !
Between normal and respectable humans(what we can expect from masons) we can have different views, exchange thes different view and confront them no to our own pride but to common background : Rituals are in this case.
If for you "making sense" mean accepting your arrogance, it is NO ! It is my duty to bring you to a masonic plan where you respect your interlocutor at the minimum as a human. Do what you like with your "communication skills" ? Do you proceed the same way in normal life ?
You choosed to place the discussion by denigratng, close to insulting, coachn !
I undestand that you do not accept the focus on You and your behavior in this discussion. Try not to focus on me(or what you speculate on me or libel) instead of my comments and discussion can be fine.
I just write that practice of banning women from common masonic work, practice current in most of the lodges which pretend be "regular" is something wrong for masonery in general and clearly sexism and apartheid. We can discuss these affirmations.

 

[Bloke]

LOL

 

[Ripcord22A]

This dude is starting to piss me off. Im not sexist, I dont discriminate against anyone. Not allowing women in to a meeting is no different then a business having requirements for employment. he keeps talking about "how do you recogniwse a freemason?" well first that person must have certain qualifications and one of them is that of being a MAN, freeborn and bearing the tounge of good report! Also that you are not present at the making of a woman, little boy or old man a mason.

He says that he continues to work in "sexist" lodges and non "sexist" lodges....so has he broken is obligation and sits in a clandestine lodge knowinly while holding his membership in a traditional lodge? GTFOH. Sorry for the rant brothers!

 

[Joaben]

When we come back on a more positive view instead of protestations of sexists who want to maintain a regressive approach that army, police, school, religions have left, what do we live in non-sexist lodges ?
Having spent most of my masonic time in sexist freemasonery and some years in non sexist, I must confess that there is no real difference. We work exactly the same.
Are there any affairs between "brothers (male and female)" ? Yes it can happen ... on the same way than in enterprise or between same-genre in mono-genre lodges.
The main change is we are not embarassed to face other people who can find strange that an organisation which have driven so many progress in the society, the democracy and mutual acceptance can carry so awful principles to ban half of the humanity !
Is "regularity" a good pretext for masonic sexism ? No ! Regularity have evolved and still evolve. In Antient Landmarks, slavery was present ! it is nomore the case.

 

[coachn]

This dude is starting to piss me off. Im not sexist, I dont discriminate against anyone. Not allowing women in to a meeting is no different then a business having requirements for employment. he keeps talking about "how do you recogniwse a freemason?" well first that person must have certain qualifications and one of them is that of being a MAN, freeborn and bearing the tounge of good report! Also that you are not present at the making of a woman, little boy or old man a mason.

He says that he continues to work in "sexist" lodges and non "sexist" lodges....so has he broken is obligation and sits in a clandestine lodge knowinly while holding his membership in a traditional lodge? GTFOH. Sorry for the rant brothers!

You forgot "madmen and fools!"

 

[Joaben]

This dude is starting to piss me off. Im not sexist, I dont discriminate against anyone. !

Your insults proves your weakness in arguments.
To ban women from your lodge is, by definition, sexual discrimination.
The fact you talk not to your interlocutor but about a "he" shows your masonic morality ...
Apparently you do not know thes basics of "how to recognize a freemason" ... because you talk about candidates... which is not the subject.
Are you sleeping during ceremonys of initiation ?
I understand that you dont not accept to face reality ... or the mirror (Scotish Antient Rite)...

 

[Joaben]

You forgot "madmen and fools!"

Incredible to read such ignorance of the basics at the level of "entered apprentice" ... Apprently, you pretend to "coach" ??? what ? not masonery, I hope !

 

[Ripcord22A]

You forgot "madmen and fools!"

I left those out on purpose. didnt want to seem like i was insulting him.

@coachn what is "masonery"

I didnt insult anyone. I wonder if this dude has ever told anyone NO in his entire life. cause if he has isnt that discrimination?

 

[Ripcord22A]

Damnit....He drug me in. I said i wasnt going to engage.....AHHHH !@!!!

 

[coachn]

Incredible to read such ignorance of the basics at the level of "entered apprentice" ... Apprently, you pretend to "coach" ??? what ? not masonery, I hope !

<snicker> Your hope was just dashed upon the rocks of despair.

 

[coachn]

I left those out on purpose. didnt want to seem like i was insulting him.

@coachn what is "masonery"

I didnt insult anyone. I wonder if this dude has ever told anyone NO in his entire life. cause if he has isnt that discrimination?

You can't satisfy a disturbed mind committed to reject reason.

 

[Joaben]

You can't satisfy a disturbed mind committed to reject reason.

To qualify "reason" your arrogance and inability to answer a so basic question "how ...." is just a manifestation of your pride. Are you skilled in mental illness or is it just another bragging ? To treat as "mad" other ones is typically kown in psychiatric hospitals ... I understand that the mirror showing your incompetence is difficult for you as well as the puerility to display your books ...
I am sorry to write that but you are so agressive and disdainful ... You'd better choose to accept a respectuous discussion, even if it upset your certainties...
@jdMAD The "he" replies on the field you choos in more moderate than your insults.
Educated people when they say "NO" add "WHY" ... and if you say because you are a woman, it is, by definition sexism. Hard ! this mirror ...
Some more insults to compensate ??? Even in this case when you insult, you face your target, not insult "he" ...
OK ! I understand better what drives this sexist militant in masonery ...

 

[Ripcord22A]

Im still trying to figure out what masonery is. it may very well be sexist but my Masonry isnt. So if someone turned you down for a jpob because you werent qualified to be a stripper at a strip club is that sexist? becasue you have a penis you cant dance on a pole at a gentelmens club......thats sexist, i dont see people lining up to whine and complain about that. What about the fact that because I was a white male from a middle calss family with good but not great grades I had practically zero chance of getting scholarships.....thats discrimination....what about the fact that you are trying to force us, Freemasons from GLs that follow the Ancient landmarks, and are a private group, to change our criteria. I dont see colleges forcing frats and sororities to allow members of the opposite sex. Also what about forcing private business(bakery) to back a cake for a gay marriage that violates their religious beliefs? everytime you FORCE someone or some entity to changed their beliefs/actions cause it offends someone else you are offending the people being forced to change. Its ok to be offensive as long as its against men, christians and heterosexuals i guess.

 

[Joaben]

@jmad When yo accept to think, there is matter of dicussion. sexism is a WORD which has a meaning described in dictionnary. And regarding these definition your pratice in masonery is, factually, sexist. Why ? Because you do not apply masonic criteria (clearly described in rituals), but personal feelings. When I invite you to to think abaout masonics ("how do you ...") which is exactly relevant in this situation, that's the point ! Your examples are typical : You refer to activities where the presence of penis or breast can be an handicap. Is it the case in freemasonery ? NO ! In sport, nature of male-female makes them compete in different categories as well as junior or senior ... Is it the case in freemasonery ? NO ! Is masonery a competition ?
In fact who force, impose ? In non-sexist masonery is it mandatory to have women in lodges ? NO ! But in sexist masonic organisation they FORCE lodges to sexism !
So do not try to play the victims ! It is exatcly the contrary !
In fact, the real subject is WHY your organisations IMPOSE sexism to all lodges !
And you have never explained what frighten you so much to practice masonery with women ... fear they should be better ?
What's this "blabla" about christians, heterosexuals, men ???

 

[Ripcord22A]

Im not frightned. but Im still trying to figure out what Masonery is. Lodges are not Forced to do anything. If they want to be a member of their jurisdictions GL then yes they must meet certain criteria. Recently the military has opened all jobs to females. from what i have heard the standards have been lowered so that females can pass, i have no proff of this but that is the murmurings. Also if womed were allowed I dont think my wife would have allowed me to join. Also I dont think I would have wanted too, If i wanted a mix gender experience i would have joined the elks, or moose or IF i wanted something similar FreeMASONRY i would have joined the IOOF. No one is being forced to do anything. If women want to join freemasonry they can, just not my lodge or GL. I dont want to be a member of that group. WHAT RIGHT do you have to FORCE ME TO BE? Also Im just curious how are women prepared as fas as what bodie parts are bare? I might want to "accidently" be present at the raising of a woman of they are prepared the same as we are....lol

 

[Joaben]

To figure out "what masonery is" it is better to read your rituals, listen at what is said in ceremonys than talking about dancers.
Masonery is done in lodges, not in GL. GL are there to SERVE the lodges not to dictate ! In 1717, the grand lodge of London was founded by 4 lodges to serve them.
Does not your wife accept you meet females in your job ? How ca yu asses how you should feel in a non-sexist lodge if you have never been there . I have ! And I can tell you that all your objections fall when you really see intead of fantasming.
It's strange that you talk about "forcing" ! Nobody wants to force you ! But why do you want to force other lodges to be sexist as you ? Why does it matter to you that other lodges meet pacifically in teh same GL than you without sexism ?
Typical voyeurism ... One of the reason demonstrating why sexist masonery is wrong ... Nobody has told you that eveything in masonery is symbolic ? even a bare breast ?

 

[Ripcord22A]

as for the blabla about christians, heteros and men...... It seems that you can force those groups to change their beliefs and practices but if you try to make a woman, LGBT person or nonChristian to accept something other then they hold to be true you are a biggot and are slammed for it.

Just because I dont want to be a member of a FRATernal organisation that admits women doesnt make me sexist and becasue I think some one that gets their penis chopped off and truned in to a vagina is still a male doesnt make be a biggot. We are not Sexist. Here is the dictionary defination since you keep bringing it up....

Sexist:The belief that one sex (usually the male) is naturally superior to the other and should dominate most important areas of political, economic, and social life(dictionary.com)
Sexist:unfair treatment of people because of their sex(merrium-webster)

Neither of those definitions are being done but not allowing women to join our GLs. There are other GLs that they can join, so it fair. we dont believe that women are subordinate to men or anyof that. you point is notvalid.

UGLE even acknowledges Female and mixed GLs exist and that their work is regular but does not recognise them. again thats not sexist. your point is not valid.

Let me ask you this....there is a transgender(male to female) mixed martial arts fighter, it lived its whole life as a male untill several years ago made the "transition" should real females be forced to this person, they dont have to accept the fight but if their reason for not taking the fight is that they dont fell safe fighting some one the "used" to be a man they will get run outta town? Or what about the bathroom debate...should people who dont agree with people who "identify" as the toher sex be FORCED to share a bathroom with them? I dont care what you associate with...let someone with a penis or someone that used to have apenis walk in to a bathroom with my daughter and we are gonna have problems......

 

[Ripcord22A]

does that make me a biggot cause i dont want my daught sharing a bathroom or lockerroom with someone that is so confused that they think that are a woman? maybe they get even more confused and think they can touch my daughter with out her permission?\\

When i was in HS if they would have told us that if you "IDENTIF" as a girl you can use their locker room...the next day I wolda been Jonathina and been in that locker room so fast....lol

 

[Joaben]

Change beliefs and pracices is someting common. I have no power to force but try to convince to abandon these archaic and shameful practices.
Some people are christians an become other religion or non-religious ! That's life.
YOUR choice is yours ! Simply the fact you choose an organisation because it bans women is obviously sexist ... Why dont you accept this reality ? It does not make you a criminal ! Banning of women is sexism ... does not matter your personal choice...
No ! you distort the definition : Sexism is only "discrimination based on sex" no matter if you feel superior ! Yes ! It is unfair to treat people that way ! That's my (and many other humans) opinion ! May be you are happy and proud to behave this way.
I do not talk about subordination ... but if you like : "accepted women lodges" ... really awful !
UGLE progress and remove more and more sexism. Recognition between GL is more a political matter. If you want to see this kind of silly practices around recognition in France : A freemason can pass from "Bien aimé Frere"(Welle loved Brother) well accepted to a non-mason banned in a minute through a break in agreement at the top of the GLs...
It is totally ridiculous, when you know that FM brings high-values, self-contrôl, reason, sanity !
Apparently you do not understand that masonery has nothing to do with sport, competiton, sex, nudity. As well as jobs, bridge, chess.

 

[pointwithinacircle2]

Proverbs 18:2 - Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions.