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Balloting in an E.A. Lodge (Texas)

Pscyclepath

Premium Member
Br. Pscyclepath,
Do you have to close in all 3 degrees at the end of the meeting? If so, do you have a "short form" for closing?

Closing the Master's degree closes all the subordinate lodges below it... so we simply close in the Masters. You must, however, close in the highest degree on which the lodge was opened...
 

Warrior1256

Site Benefactor
Why do you prefer to only do business on the MM?
It just seems to me that since you are not a "full fledged Mason" until after the 3rd degree you should have to wait until then to fully participate in the meetings. I am a fairly new MM, having been raised in August last year, and am not speaking for anyone else, just my humble opinion.
 

Glen Cook

G A Cook
Site Benefactor
It just seems to me that since you are not a "full fledged Mason" until after the 3rd degree you should have to wait until then to fully participate in the meetings. I am a fairly new MM, having been raised in August last year, and am not speaking for anyone else, just my humble opinion.
But would not attendance, without right of voting, allow only limited participation?
 

Warrior1256

Site Benefactor
But would not attendance, without right of voting, allow only limited participation?
Yes, it would. I just feel that the right to participate in these meeting is to be earned and that is done by working through the MM degree. As I said before, just my personal opinion and feelings.
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
But would not attendance, without right of voting, allow only limited participation?

In my experience the main difference is confusion. EAs and FCs may speak on any topic but not vote. Not all that many motions see discussion, so so far I don't recall seeing any EA or FC raising to speak other than when specifically asked.

I've stood with EAs and FCs during a ballot. One brother stays with them until I ballot, then I relieve him and he joins the ballot line. The company helps and it's a good time to explain to them that they are always welcome to stand to speak before any motion comes to vote.

To me the issue of Stated in the 1st is simple. It's the world wide standard and always has been. To deviate from a world wide standard I expect a justification other than it's the current status quo. Before the matter came up in California GL I spoke on the matter that my mother lodge. The pedestal officers didn't even know it's the world wide standard. Just learning that was enough to change their minds on the matter.
 

Bloke

Premium Member
To me the issue of Stated in the 1st is simple. It's the world wide standard and always has been. To deviate from a world wide standard I expect a justification other than it's the current status quo.

Hi Dreybur, for the purposes of clarity, what is this world wide standard ? Are you talking about equality of something else ?
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
Hi Dreybur, for the purposes of clarity, what is this world wide standard ? Are you talking about equality of something else ?

Stated meetings in the first degree. EAs having a vote in matters not needing a unanimous ballot. Back in the 1840s US jurisdictions diverged from the world wide standard for reasons valid at the time and long since obsolete.
 

hanzosbm

Premium Member
I've always been a bit torn on whether EAs and FCs should vote, so I'll lay that issue aside for the moment.

I hesitate to use the word 'hate', but for lack of a better word, I will. I hate the attitude that an EA is not a full Mason. He is told time and time again that he is a Mason, in most jurisdictions that I'm familiar with, the very first line of the catechism speaks to this. I cannot, for the life of me, understand where this idea came from that only MM are real Masons. Next we'll be saying that only officers are real Masons. Then, only PMs are real Masons. It is simple, black and white, the moment a man takes his O&O, he is a Mason. End of story.
In my opinion, he ought to pay dues and be entitled to every Masonic right EXCEPT travel and maybe balloting.
In thinking about this, maybe this is the reason. Here in the US, we rely so heavily upon dues cards as a mode of recognition for traveling brothers, that if you don't want an EA to travel, you don't give him a dues card. But how do you not give him one if he's paid his dues? In my mind, it's simple; dues cards simply have the degree indicated on them.
 

Bloke

Premium Member
We dont have dues cards. It's good EA & FCs here have full rights - voting, visiting, etc... and they pay dues... They don't pay per degree, they just join. As they cannot be made MM's for a period of not less than 12 months, they are likely to have paid 2 years before they are made an MM.. Here, they are moving to allow all MMs to vote at GL (currently only GL officers and PMs). For me, that's where you draw the line... for a mason, 6 years is not long to wait to be able to raise your hand at GL.. having said that, MMs are one of our most important resources and should be listened to...
 

dfreybur

Premium Member
In my opinion, he ought to pay dues and be entitled to every Masonic right EXCEPT travel and maybe balloting.

In California and Illinois among my jurisdictions the newly obligated brother is invited to go with his mentor to see degrees at other lodges in the area.

In Texas the newly obligated brother is issued an EA or FC card and invited to go with his mentor to see degrees at other lodges in the area.

In thinking about this, maybe this is the reason. Here in the US, we rely so heavily upon dues cards as a mode of recognition for traveling brothers, that if you don't want an EA to travel, you don't give him a dues card. But how do you not give him one if he's paid his dues? In my mind, it's simple; dues cards simply have the degree indicated on them.

The Texas approach works, but it's a hack compared to the worldwide standard of charging dues and allowing hand votes as soon as a brother is obligated.

Is it time to push for dues and hand votes among EAs and FCs? Having gotten Stated meetings in any degree it's no longer a motivating issue to me.

That would leave balloting and admission into appendent bodies as the additional privileges for MMs.
 

hanzosbm

Premium Member
In California and Illinois among my jurisdictions the newly obligated brother is invited to go with his mentor to see degrees at other lodges in the area.

In Texas the newly obligated brother is issued an EA or FC card and invited to go with his mentor to see degrees at other lodges in the area.

With a MM, I'd be okay with for the purpose of seeing degrees. On his own, I would say no.

There has also been a lot of discussion here dangling a carrot of various privileges so that a brother will not stall in his advancement. I think this is just another sign of the problems that the Craft faces. The knowledge gained by diligent study ought to be enough of an inducement. If it is not, one might argue that he was never truly ready to begin with.
 

Canadian Paul

Registered User
In both jurisdictions here (Scotland and Newfoundland and Labrador) meetings are usually conducted in the EA degree and ballots taken in that degree. The only important difference between the two jurisdictions is that in the GL of NL an EA pays annual dues and therefore has 'voice and vote'. In our Scottish lodges only MMs are 'qualified members'. EAs and FCs have 'no voice nor vote' - but then again, they do not pay annual dues!

To my mind the greatest advantage of working in the first degree is that there is no pressure on getting EAs and FCs through their degrees so they can sit in lodge. I attended a Regular Meeting of another lodge one week after being initiated and accompanied the Master to a meeting in another lodge, as well as my own, every month thereafter; - by the time I became a MM I almost knew the whole Opening and Closing in the First Degree by heart!
 

CLewey44

Registered User
So I've heard two different versions:

An E.A. cannot be present during the balloting process

or

All business can be conducted in an E.A. Lodge, including balloting

Which is it? Tonight we had an E.A. and when it came to cast my vote, I gave the sign of an E.A. instead of a M.M. When I did so, there were grumbles and comments including "he just gave the wrong sign". Obviously it was the only one I could give with an E.A. sitting in the Lodge.

I visited a lodge once in TX and it was open on the EA degree but that did ballot which I found a bit odd since that's not the case in OK. The EA didn't get to vote but he was there. In our lodge, all business is conducted on the MM degree. I think the reason any business in TX is done on any degree is to maybe include the EAs and FCs so they will attend meetings. I guess it doesn't really matter which degree you're open on but it would seem to take away some of the mystery and motivation a bit if you saw everything on your first time there as an EA. IDK, it's a tough debacle to solve.
 
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