A Brother Asks: Why Is Excluding Women Legitimate?

[Bloke]

Wow "coach". You seem to very quickly dismiss any rational discussion here, cutting it short with technicalities. I've been a Mason for 15 years now with Past Grand Rank "yadda yadda", as well as several of the side degrees. Rarely do I remembering encountering such intellectual "superiority". Nevertheless it's your thread (as well as much of this bulletin board it would appear) so I will withdraw and leave you to it. My insights are clearly not needed here. Just do me a favour: List a similar organisation to Freemasonry in 1717, outside of a University, that had female members please. Or is that simply conjecture on your part? To my knowledge, women were allowed to attend Royal Society meetings in the late 1600's, but not join as members.

As long as the emotional temperature in the thread does not get too hot, I recommend debating Coach, if you are into that sort of thing, but realise he is not having a loose discussion, he is vigorously applying logic and rhetoric from a position.

However, I would also comment I have an email on my desk, and it reads something like "I was really interested in becoming a Freemason until I exprerienced the hostility on social media that Masons show each other". We always need to keep that in mind. The world watches.

 

[Bevan Jones]

Nunneries

He, he. Touché, although do you really imagine nuns were running around in 1717 exploring the hidden mysteries of Nature and Science?

 

[Bevan Jones]

As long as the emotional temperature in the thread does not get too hot, I recommend debating Coach, if you are into that sort of thing, but realise he is not having a loose discussion, he is vigorously applying logic and rhetoric from a position.

Indeed. Unfortunately this is an emotional topic for many. I was simply pointing out that at least 2 out of 3 points of the grand principles on which our order is founded, viz. "Brotherly Love, Relief and Truth", do not exclude women. Clearly the focus here is on the first and I get that. Statistically speaking, many others won't.

 

[coachn]

Wow "coach". You seem to very quickly dismiss any rational discussion here, cutting it short with technicalities.

Not "seem". I am. The devil's in the details. When I recognize speciousness, there is no need to draw things out.

I've been a Mason for 15 years now with Past Grand Rank "yadda yadda", as well as several of the side degrees.

Don't make me pull it out so we can compare. This is not a contest.

Rarely do I remembering encountering such intellectual "superiority".

LOL! Nice try. Not going to bite. Your comment is ad hominem. Red herring.

Nevertheless it's your thread (as well as much of this bulletin board it would appear)

Yes, and no - another ad hominem.

...so I will withdraw and leave you to it.

Fair enough.

My insights are clearly not needed here.

Don't belittle your contribution. They do serve a good training purpose for those who want to learn specious arguments.

Just do me a favour: List a similar organisation to Freemasonry in 1717, outside of a University, that had female members please.

Do the work Bro. I'll let you know if our research matches.

Or is that simply conjecture on your part?

Do the work...

To my knowledge, women were allowed to attend Royal Society meetings in the late 1600's, but not join as members.

Do the work...

 

[Bloke]

Indeed. Unfortunately this is an emotional topic for many. I was simply pointing out that at least 2 out of 3 points of the grand principles on which our order is founded, viz. "Brotherly Love, Relief and Truth", do not exclude women. Clearly the focus here is on the first and I get that. Statistically speaking, many others won't.

I think one of the great errors people make is because Regular Freemasonry is a Fraternity, it is somehow misogynistic whereas we (should) know to misogyny is unmasonic behaviour. Further, as a MM, we all know we actually have special duties to look after the welfare of a Brother's Wife and Child. I hold that my Freemasonry should remain a Fraternity, partly because of what Coach says, but also because it is a good to have a space which should be void of sexual politics and attraction (I am sure my valued gay brothers would understand my statement and hope it does not upset them).. I respect woman's rights to create spaces without men such as gyms and birthing circles, These things are not for everyone, but I value and draw a lot from having a single sex space. Further, that while woman are not admitted into a Masonic meeting, they are often actually very valuable and valued members of our Masonic Community. Some of the strongest advocates I have in my life for Regular Freemasonry are women who have attended our meetings (dinners and socials and indeed certain non-typled ceremonial events) and understand the good we do for the individual and can do for society at large.

 

[Bloke]

He, he. Touché, although do you really imagine nuns were running around in 1717 exploring the hidden mysteries of Nature and Science?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hildegard_of_Bingen

While not on science, this woman's story tells one of how the Church saw women and I would say in such a strong patriarchy (we are not a Patriarchy , we're a Fraternity) I wold imagine what some nuns were up to would be..... esoteric
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juana_In%E9s_de_la_Cruz

 

[Bevan Jones]

Don't belittle your contribution. They do serve a good training purpose for those who want to learn specious arguments.

Ad hominem. To which I will respond that your arrogance appears to know no bounds.

To the others, whilst of course there have been many individual women philosophers, alchemists etc. dating back to ancient Greece even, I still have yet to see an example of a formal institution that supported them. Nunneries did not publically support this type of investigation.

Simply saying "do the work" is a complete cop-out and helps disguise the fact that the emperor has no clothes.

 

[Glen Cook]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hildegard_of_Bingen

...While nI would say in such a strong patriarchy (we are not a Patriarchy , we're a Fraternity)...

I wonder if, with the various female appendant bodies (OES, Amaranth, Rainbow, Job’s , LOS, Nile), the North American fraternity has taken on the quality of a patriarchy.

 

[coachn]

Don't belittle your contribution. They do serve a good training purpose for those who want to learn specious arguments.

Ad hominem. To which I will respond that your arrogance appears to know no bounds.

LOL! Can't stop yourself, can you?

...Simply saying "do the work" is a complete cop-out and helps disguise the fact that the emperor has no clothes.

<sigh> yep, can't stop yourself...

 

[Warrior1256]

Why must insist upon clouding a good discussion with reality?

LOL! coachn at it again!

 

[Warrior1256]

I think one of the great errors people make is because Regular Freemasonry is a Fraternity, it is somehow misogynistic whereas we (should) know to misogyny is unmasonic behaviour. Further, as a MM, we all know we actually have special duties to look after the welfare of a Brother's Wife and Child. I hold that my Freemasonry should remain a Fraternity, partly because of what Coach says, but also because it is a good to have a space which should be void of sexual politics and attraction (I am sure my valued gay brothers would understand my statement and hope it does not upset them).. I respect woman's rights to create spaces without men such as gyms and birthing circles, These things are not for everyone, but I value and draw a lot from having a single sex space. Further, that while woman are not admitted into a Masonic meeting, they are often actually very valuable and valued members of our Masonic Community. Some of the strongest advocates I have in my life for Regular Freemasonry are women who have attended our meetings (dinners and socials and indeed certain non-typled ceremonial events) and understand the good we do for the individual and can do for society at large.

BRAVO!

 

[Rifleman1776]

I am astounded this thread even exists much less how much angst it has generated. It is what it is. Men are men, women are women. Viva la difference. If women were allowed in, I would leave. Part of what I enjoy about Masonry is the ability to get away from women for a while.

 

[LK600]

However, intellectually speaking I'm having a very hard time squaring the concept of not allowing women in anymore.

Intellectually speaking, you have been conflating apples to oranges. While I truly mean no disrespect, many of those arguments amount to what is termed, strawman.

 

[Warrior1256]

f women were allowed in, I would leave.

I've said this myself more than once. If regular Masonry, as I know it, ever admits women I'm gone.

 

[Bloke]

I wonder if, with the various female appendant bodies (OES, Amaranth, Rainbow, Job’s , LOS, Nile), the North American fraternity has taken on the quality of a patriarchy.

Interesting question, but I don't know because I have no first had knowledge, but from what I understand, OES always seemed a bit strange that men seemed so strongly involved in the qualification process for a what I understand is a female focused group, but I would be interested in understanding what you are saying Bro Glen with a further clarification Bro Glen.

 

[Bloke]

....To the others, whilst of course there have been many individual women philosophers, alchemists etc. dating back to ancient Greece even, I still have yet to see an example of a formal institution that supported them. Nunneries did not publically support this type of investigatio,,.

I would say they would be there, but written out of history because of its often patriarchal portrayal of history. That said, it would be naive to say anything other than women were deprived of rights and were often seen as goods in Western Culture, they certainly did not have the same legal rights nor social or economic opportunities.

If a student of history and interested in Truth, it would be interesting to see if we can find one. I cant really think of one and women like Elizabeth 1 were and St Hildebrand rather outliers than peak examples of a trajectory open to most women (and we are ignoring class in this, very important in the Medieval West. One leveler was military conquest - certainly not generally open to any women). I think examples like these
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_education#Medieval_period are counter culture - but they still existed which is something which should be noted. One thing for sure, if I was a woman - I would definitely pick being born in a Western Society as close to today as possible. (mind you, I would say the same for being born male).

That's all interesting, but I must further add, I do not see that women not being admitted as members of Regular Freemasonry has anything to do with "woman's rights". Woman have access to Masonic experiences if they want it, and it is up to organisations like LDH to work to provide that is woman want it, just like we work to build malecentric regular Freemasonry.

 

[coachn]

If only we...

Who is this "we" of whom you speak?

...had the genuine secrets...

Okay... I get it. You don't have these genuine secrets which most everyone has who does the Work that is pointed toward by each degree.

"If only" you did this Work too perhaps you would stop your incessant "If only..." whine acting like the rest of us don't.

...we would know for sure whether ...

There's that royal "we" again. Seriously, you need to speak for yourself dude. You certainly do NOT speak for the rest of us.

...women have a role in Masonic Science.

Spurious argument. Red Herring. Not on topic. The issue is not whether women have a role in "Masonic Science". The issue is male centric societies excluding them legitimately!

Here are the male and female founders of China with S&C and hand over back

EWWWWWWW!!!!!! THEY HAVE A S&C! THEY MUST BE ILLUMINATTI FREEMASONS!!!!!!!

Your statement is spurious and off topic. The picture and comment you shared depicts Chinese mythology. It has nothing to do with the topic.

You also neglected to mention the plumb-bob next to the square. "If only" you did the Work...

(source: http://www.templestudy.com/2008/09/17/nuwa-and-fuxi-in-chinese-mythology-compass-square/)

 

[coachn]

I apologize for upsetting you

<chuckle> ... much like many of your posts, you assume much here as well.

 

[acjohnson53]

I would refer them to my sister Chapter of the OES, that is about as close they will get, and we got flying GOATS in there, wouldn't want nobody to get hurt in there, insurance won't cover it. and the darn thing bite...LOL

 

[Glen Cook]

I would refer them to my sister Chapter of the OES, that is about as close they will get, and we got flying GOATS in there, wouldn't want nobody to get hurt in there, insurance won't cover it. and the darn thing bite...LOL

But, of course, that is not Freemasonry if that is their goal