Recognition

Discussion in 'History and Research' started by BroBook, Jun 7, 2016.

  1. BroBook

    BroBook Premium Member

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    Greetings Brothers: I need some aide, my Grand Lodge just started a University of Instruction, I went to the inaugural classes, we have to do a research project. For my subject I picked " Grand lodges that don't recognize PHA " . I know who they are I need some assurance as to why. Is there a site, that would help ?


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  2. Ripcord22A

    Ripcord22A Site Benefactor

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    phoenix masonry or the phlaxis society. Also go to those GLs websites and see if they have GM edict or something in their bylaws about it.
     
  3. dfreybur

    dfreybur Premium Member

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    http://bessel.org/masrec/phachart.htm
    http://bessel.org/masrec/phamap.htm

    Unfortunately the site is no longer under maintenance. It tells one side of the who recognizes story so it gives doubly incomplete answers to your questions.

    I think what you need is to look up both sides of our family in states that don't have current local recognition and find their history. There have been rumors that GLofXX offered local recognition but MWPHGLofXX turned them down. Finding out what really happened would be instructive.

    We aren't supposed to contact foreign jurisdictions directly. We are supposed to go through our own Grand Secretary office indirectly. That's 18 parallel queries in 9 states to even find out what year to look in.

    There's a loop hole to the contact rule - Nearly every jurisdiction has at least 1 Lodge of Research who do respond across jurisdictions. That's 18 parallel quires that are at least direct.

    The questions I would ask each Lodge of Research is something like this -

    (Usual introductions and fraternal greetings)

    I'm doing a research project on the history of PHA recognition across the country. To this end I wold like to know what years, if any, the subject have come up for vote at Annual Communication. Then once I know the years to look into how I could purchase or borrow a copy of the Proceedings of the Annual Communications from your jurisdiction for those years. I'm interested in years sending an offer of recognition came up for a vote and years that an offer for recognition arrived from the other local jurisdiction, if any.

    In the long run I may want to contact brothers involved in those discussions for any discussion that is suitable to share outside of the jurisdiction. Please let me know any of those Brothers are members of your Lodge of Research to see if it's possible to contact them directly, or if I have to channel the requests through our respective Grand Secretary offices.

    (Usual thanks and fraternal regards)

    The problem you'll face is that any discussion that does have to go through channels will fail because it would be between jurisdictions without recognition. Being in PHA union GL in Florida any such request by you would fail on all of the GLofXX side.

    That's why you want to contact Lodge of Research whose members deal with outsiders. That's why you want to read copies of Proceedings which are allowed to the general public.

    Bon chance my Brother
     
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  4. BroBook

    BroBook Premium Member

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  5. BullDozer Harrell

    BullDozer Harrell Registered User

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    Brother, you more than likely won't find a website that gives you the full story about both sides of the issue.
    Yes it's a 2 sided issue.
    It's not only that those GLof State have denied recognition to the concurrent PHGLofState, but there's also a refusal by PH Grand Lodges to grant recognition to their Fraternal counterparts.

    You seem to be aware of this though but i say this perspective should serve your research well going into the matter.
    Neither sides have been willing to reach out as of lately nor respond to each other so that this issue could be decided on the respective floor during Grand Lodge Sessions.

    It probably hasn't been put to votes in awhile. Consider that for a perspective.



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  6. hanzosbm

    hanzosbm Premium Member

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    Agreed. And then, to make matters worse, there's no guarantee that the explanation you receive will REALLY explain anything. I'd be willing to bet that you'll run into a number of cases along the lines of "we don't think it's right at this time" without telling you why. And honestly, I wouldn't blame them. It's kind of a sensitive subject to actively decide NOT to recognize one's counterpart. I recall a PH Mason telling me that upon a visit to mainstream lodge, they were surprised that the floor work was rather sloppy in comparison. Now, I'm not saying that recognition would be withheld for that reason, but for the sake of example, let's say one branch decided not to recognize another due to the feeling that their ritual work and Masonic education were not up to snuff. I doubt they would really want to put that in writing as the reason for fear of insulting those being denied. In short, while I applaud your effort and would love to read the final paper, prepare yourself for the possibility of not getting as clear of answers as you might like.
     
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  7. Warrior1256

    Warrior1256 Site Benefactor

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    As I understand it here in Kentucky the two Grand Lodges recognize each other but we do not have visitation rights. No one has been able to give me the reason, only opinions.
     
  8. king82

    king82 Registered User

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    from what I here in ky next year they are voting on visitation both sides. Its in layover now. So we will know when they vote at GL
     
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  9. Travelling Man91

    Travelling Man91 Registered User

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    If there are differences in the ritual and degree work, what does a visiting brother do ?
     
  10. Brother JC

    Brother JC Vigilant Staff Member

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    Watch, learn, appreciate. Just like visiting any lodge outside your jurisdiction.
     
  11. Travelling Man91

    Travelling Man91 Registered User

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    Thank you for your answer, but I'm asking more in the sense does the visiting brother mimic what said lodge is doing or does he do what he was taught ?

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  12. hanzosbm

    hanzosbm Premium Member

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    Are you talking about from the sidelines? If so, there's really not much you need to do, per se. And while I haven't traveled extensively, I highly doubt that the due guards and signs differ much by jurisdiction. If I'm mistaken, I'd be interested in hearing more about it.
     
  13. Glen Cook

    Glen Cook G A Cook Site Benefactor

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    Actually, the signs can vary. I recommend my guests attending my UGLE lodges use their own signs.
     
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  14. Warrior1256

    Warrior1256 Site Benefactor

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    I'll be looking forward to the vote. I would like the opportunity to visit Brethren in PHA lodges.
     
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  15. hanzosbm

    hanzosbm Premium Member

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    Good to know, thank you for the clarification.
     
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  16. dfreybur

    dfreybur Premium Member

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    There are often detailed differences in the signs, but some of them are subtle enough they are hard to notice and some are not well learned. Toes pointing straight forward and straight out versus toes point out at 45 degrees. Movements on a 3 count versus movements on a 5 count. Squared movements versus rounded movements. I am currently a member in 3 jurisdictions so I know 3 different ways to give signs. Unless you are told what to look for you might not even see the differences. Do it the way you learned in the jurisdiction you are a member of and if the Brothers notice a difference have fun comparing notes.

    There are always differences in opening and closing but many don't matter. If you visit a jurisdiction that gathers the pass, give it when asked. Among my jurisdictions, one gathers the pass in 2 degrees, one gathers the pass in 1 degree, one gathers the pass in 0 degrees. The word given is the same with plenty of mumbling and accent variation.

    Some brothers like to discuss ritual variation others don't. When some Brothers were interested I have demonstrated a scene from the second section that gets deleted in many states. Or was it inserted in only a few states.
     
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  17. Bloke

    Bloke Premium Member

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    Use your own "secrets", mimic their words if you respond in a group in ritual. Your own signs are all you can prove and trying to mimic signs will just ring false and make you look suspicious. I love it when we get visitors with different signs and encourage demonstrations; some of them are very different, almost unrecognizable.
     
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  18. caution22113

    caution22113 Registered User

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    Do as you would in your jurisdiction.
     
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  19. Ripcord22A

    Ripcord22A Site Benefactor

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    When we visitied PHA i noticed that during prayer they placed their arms differently then us....we give the sign of the Good Shepard. We still gave the sign of the Good Shepard. Then when they came to our EA last month they did their thing during prayer and we ours. Our passes are the same so when we went their, as they open on MM, it was all good. Other than that not much someone from the sidelines to do.

    My suggestion is the first time u go to a PHA lodge go as a group and let them know your coming. Chances are that their GM has or will have been to ur GL and ViceVersa so that can make it easier if there's someone to vouch for the visitors...

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  20. Travelling Man91

    Travelling Man91 Registered User

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    Sign of the good Sheppard ? Never heard of that.
     
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