Under who's juridiction?

Discussion in 'The Traveling Freemason' started by Blake Bowden, Jan 14, 2011.

  1. Blake Bowden

    Blake Bowden Administrator Staff Member

    5,679
    984
    113
    If I had the opportunity to visit a Lodge in Massachusetts, would I be bound to the rules and regulations of their GL, the GL of Texas or both?
     
  2. Casey

    Casey Mandalorian Premium Member

    156
    2
    18
    good question. You're asking for a law based answer. I'll wait for some more of the learned brothers to answer that. I am going to answer based on what I feel. I feel you would be bound by their (Ma.) rules/regulations/bylaws. If our grand lodge has any problems with the ways of that jurisdiction that are severe enough for it to be a masonic violation they would pull recognition from that jurisdiction.

    A lot like going to a friends home; ..... who makes the rules??..... He does.
     
  3. Jamesb

    Jamesb Registered User

    198
    0
    0
    "Under whose jurisdiction I may be...." I was under the impression that this covered it. But I also beleive that Texas Rules trump all others if in doubt. Excellent question though I can't wait to see what others say, I plan to visit other states as well and would like to see the impressions of others.
     
  4. Bill Lins

    Bill Lins Moderating Staff Staff Member

    4,304
    1,099
    183
    I have to agree with "their house, their rules". Of course, Masonic principles are pretty much the same world-wide, so I'd think that if you behaved according to our laws & precepts, you couldn't go too far wrong.
     
  5. robert leachman

    robert leachman Registered User

    193
    0
    16
    ...'cept up there you might have to get dressed up to sit in Lodge.
    Kinda goes against what we learned the first night if you ask me, though I don't think tshirts and cut off are OK either.
     
  6. Blake Bowden

    Blake Bowden Administrator Staff Member

    5,679
    984
    113
    So if I traveled to Massachusetts, could I attend Lodge with a Prince Hall Mason?
     
  7. Joey

    Joey Co-Founder Staff Member

    292
    3
    18
    Ultimately I think the answer would be yes...
     
  8. Bro. Stewart P.M.

    Bro. Stewart P.M. Lead Moderator Emeritus Staff Member

    2,443
    463
    103
    I believe that answer is in two parts:

    1) Yes, you could sit in a GLoMA Lodge with a PHA Brother
    2) No, you cold not sit in a MWPHGLoMA with a MA Brother

    At least this is what I have been told by several well versed Brethren pertaining to my similar inquiry about OK visitation.
     
  9. cemab4y

    cemab4y Premium Member

    1,137
    255
    103
    I have been researching this topic for some weeks. I belong to two lodges (KY and Mass). I reside in Virginia. I work in Afghanistan. I attend a lodge, that is chartered by the Grand Lodge of Ontario (Canada).

    Since my residence is in Virginia, does the Grand Lodge of Virginia require me to follow their regulations? And if I broke a Virginia masonic rule, how would they discipline me? Give me a letter of reprimand? I would throw it in the trash. Suspend me from Virginia Masonry? How can I be suspended from a lodge, that I am not a member of? Expel me from Virginia Masonry? Again, how can I be expelled from a Grand Lodge, that I am not a member of?

    I respect Virginia masonry, and I have visited many of their lodges. But I feel that the Grand Lodge of Virginia has no control over me.

    One of my Grand Lodges (Mass) has fraternal relations with Prince Hall masonry. One (KY) does not. Can I attend a Prince Hall lodge? If I do, Kentucky can suspend me, and ask Mass. to withdraw my membership, and Mass. would have to comply.
     
  10. cemab4y

    cemab4y Premium Member

    1,137
    255
    103
    When I am in Virginia, am I under the jurisdiction of the GL of Virginia? If I violate a VA regulation, can VA discipline me? If so, how? And what is the punishment: Reprimand, suspension, or expulsion? Reprimand that I can throw in the trash, and I cannot be suspended nor expelled from a VA lodge, because I do not belong to any VA lodge.

    If I am in Afghanistan, where there is no Grand Lodge, and I visit a Prince Hall lodge, am I in violation? I belong to two lodges, KY and Mass. Mass recognizes PH masonry, KY does not (yet). So can I visit as a Mass Mason? I would be in violation of KY regulations, and be subject to KY discipline.

    I was involved in setting up a military traveling lodge in Iraq. There is NO Grand Lodge of Iraq, either in Iraq or in exile. (Iran has a Grand Lodge-in-exile, in Los Angeles Calif) . I was accused of wanting to be the Grand Master of Iraq. Absurd beyond belief.

    ---------- Post added at 07:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:41 PM ----------

    I got into a hassle one time. A young Marine, who was a Fellow Craft Mason, and member of a lodge in Walla Walla, Washington asked me for advice. He wanted to take his Master Mason degree, at a military traveling lodge in Iraq. I sent an email to the Grand Secretary of the GL of Washington, asking for advice. I wanted to know the procedure, for getting the authorization, to get the courtesy work approved. I got reprimanded, for contacting the Grand Secretary, in a Grand Lodge where I was not a member.

    Grand Lodges are very protective of their "turf". They generally do not make allowances, for military and civilians in the combat zone.

    Nevertheless, I often contact the Grand Secretary of Virginia, when I need advice, or when a person is interested in joining a Virginia lodge. The GS of Virginia, has always been very helpful and kind. In the truest traditions of our Craft.

    For the record , I am a CIVILIAN! A rumor has gotten around ,that I have been passing myself off as a soldier. Trust me, I am way too old and too fat for military service. I was in the Air Force 1973-1978.
     
  11. jwhoff

    jwhoff Premium Member

    2,591
    142
    83
    I get your drift Brother Blake. Were it not a rules violation (of GLoTX) to set in a MWPHGLoMA lodge, I'd love to see the charter Prince Hall brought from England. After all, I believe it is the oldest acted upon charter brought from the GLoE.

    Unfortunate. But I think you can still see the second charter (first activated upon) in the GLoMA. Still a very significant historical document.
     
  12. deputy630

    deputy630 Registered User

    4
    0
    1
    I would say no to this question because you are still a Texas Mason and we do not affiliate with Prince Hall!! We do affiliate with other Masonic Lodges in other states and when we visit those states we follow the rules of there Grand Lodge.... just my .02

    ---------- Post added at 02:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:52 PM ----------

    Kenneth i would think that because his dues card says Texas that trumps anything that that lodges GL says... If Texas says you wont do it then you cant go to another state and say they said I can.....He still has to follow what Texas says.. If a NY mason came to Texas and wanted to drink in our lodge its wouldnt happen!! and he cant say well they let me do it in NY..... Look at it this way im a police office and they do not allow drug use at my job...... and if I travel to a country that allows drug use and I use said drug. I come back to my job and they test me. I show positive for drug use I cant say it was legal there so im good....I would still get fired....
     
  13. david918

    david918 Premium Member

    875
    3
    16
    How about my case, I belong to two lodges here in Texas and also one in Minnesota. Can I visit a Prince Hall lodge in Minnesota since they recognize them and what if the Grand Lodge of Minnesota recognized the Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Texas ?
     
  14. deputy630

    deputy630 Registered User

    4
    0
    1
    David I would have to say that you could per Minisota GL but you would def be violating Texas GL rules!! and in doing so you could fall under diciplinary action from the Texas GL.
     
  15. deputy630

    deputy630 Registered User

    4
    0
    1
    I can understand that.... But let me ask this do we just disregard our own GL rules just because we are out of the state??

    I'm just asking because this is very interesting question and a great topic and something that I myself would like to know! Thnx Kenneth for the replies!
     
  16. Timothy Fleischer

    Timothy Fleischer Registered User

    163
    0
    0

    You can only sit in lodge in another lodge that is fully-recognized by the Grand Lodge under whose jurisdiction you are.
    If you are a Grand Lodge of Texas Mason, this means you can only sit in Lodge in those other Grand Lodges that are "Masonically recognized" by the GLoT. I presume that same would be true of the MWPHGLT.

    The Grand Lodge of Texas prints a list of all of the Grand Lodges that it recognizes, as well as the names and numbers of the lodges under their jurisdictions.

    According to the literature in Additional Lodge Light program: "Your Lodge Secretary has a book listing all Lodges recognized by
    The Grand Lodge of Texas as being "Masonic" and with which we share fraternal relations. This book is called the "List of Lodges Masonic."

    If you are going to travel out of state, viewing this list is a great idea. Also, plan far enough in advance that your Secretary can correspond (through the Grand Lodge Grand Secretary) with the other Jurisdiction and their lodge to let that lodge know that you plan to visit.

    Be sure that you are "brushed up" on your Masonry (Tiler's oath, modes of recognition, etc.) so that when you are examined by the lodge committee, you can get in the doors. Some lodges guard their doors rather strictly while others are more relaxed. Contact ahead of time to find out if there are any "traditions" regarding dress, behavior, etc., would also be a good idea, especially when traveling beyond a state's borders.

    I hope to travel to Scotland one day to research my roots there and would like to plan on visiting some of the old Lodges there (as well as some fine Scotch distilleries).

    A new Mason to our Lodge, who was raised in Virginia Masonry, has what is called a "Masonic passport." It is basically a book that was presented to him by his Lodge some time after being raised. Each time he "travels" to another lodge, he gets it stamped by the Secretary of that lodge with a notation of the date and time of his visitation. I think that would be a great idea in Texas as well, encouraging all of us "traveling men" to visit and share Masonic friendship beyond our own borders!
     
  17. Dave in Waco

    Dave in Waco Premium Member

    764
    2
    0
    I would say that if you were a Texas Mason, you are first under the jurisdiction of Texas GL Law. If you are a Texas Mason visiting another grand jurisdiction, you should follow their GL Law as long as it does not contradict or violate Texas GL Law since it is your home GL under who you are a member. I would think that other grand jurisdictions would understand the reasons, and I do not think that most differences would be something that would get you in trouble with the grand jurisdiction you are visiting. I would think most differences might be procedural and things like that. But I would also bet if you asked GL you would get several different answers.

    So for the question about visiting a PHA lodge while visiting a grand jurisdiction that recognizes and visiting benefits, I would think that since under Texas GL does not visiting benefits, I would think that would mean you still can't visit until which time the Texas GL's see fit to agree to extend those benefits to the members of both GL's here in Texas.
     
  18. Bro. Bennett

    Bro. Bennett Premium Member

    225
    1
    38
    A good way to advise on this issue is to use a Parable;
    A man is married to a woman in Texas. Texas does not recognise Poligamy. He travels to Odophia which does recognise Poligamy, so he indulges. He comes back to Texas which cannot try him for a crime because he did not commit it in the state of Texas. His wife finds out upon his return, what do you think she is going to do to his sorry butt..
    Best way to put it is this; If in another land, remember your wife is at home with the frying pan in hand... Hope that helps...
     
  19. owls84

    owls84 Moderator Premium Member

    1,653
    9
    38
    This one is quite the pickle. I don't know on this. You are a member of both but for some reason I think this is covered in the law book. Time for me to test out my PDF version of the law book on my iPad iBooks App. I'll get back to us on this later but off the top of my head I want to think it is by the part that discusses filing charges on a member of another jurisdiction. Somewhere around that I am thinking.

    ---------- Post added at 03:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:28 PM ----------

    Someone should contact the Fraternal Relations Committee on this and ask. I am curious if you are sitting in a Lodge in Mass. that is recognized by the Grand Lodge of Texas AF&AM and a member of the PHGLofMass sits next to you what is protocol? If they are not recognized by your GL then they would be considered clandestine but you also are to follow the laws of the jurisdiction that you are visiting.

    How do you leave as a visitor to not disrespect the visiting jurisdiction? I would like to know the official answer on this.
     
  20. Dave in Waco

    Dave in Waco Premium Member

    764
    2
    0
    Anyone know an email address for them? I'll ask. Actually, our DDGM is going to be visiting tomorrow night, I'm going to see what he says.
     

Share My Freemasonry