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Christianity in Freemasonry

Elexir

Registered User
An intressting fact here is that the RCC dont have any objection to Scandinavian freemasonry due to the fact that only christians are admitted.

Also of note is that a few priest in the church of Sweden got reported to the church authorities for being Swedish rite freemasons, this led the funny thing that the persons responsible for the investigation got acess to the rituals. People hoped that the rituals would then become public but instead they became classified.
 

Brother JC

Moderating Staff
Staff Member
A very curious theological proposition - that Christ is both dark and light. You may well be correct but it is an heretical (chosen) position.

I suspect you have not read the Sumerian version of the princes from which the militarization of the 18th degree arises.

The 18th degree also has a distinctly heretical Christian overlay.

I wasn't alluding to the two being combined in one Prince, more that the two Princes were intertwined. Equally heretical in some eyes.
 

flameburns623

Registered User
Thanks Flame. Some interesting points, but all saying the same thing, incompadibility with a Church, not the Christian Religion, but a Church's view of that religion.

Among Christians, those groups most committed to submiiting themselves to either a conservative, systematic theology of the Scriptures, or the systematic teachings of a tradition (Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodoxy), are most likely to have qualms about Freemasonry.

Those who see their faith in messier terms, as providing comfort, solace, meaning, and truths--but NOT Absolute Truth--those who see their faith more as a pilgrimage than as a destination at which they have arrived--are most likely to feel that Freemasonry is compatible with and even helpful to their faith.

Fowler's Stages of Faith Development may also be relevant here. Fowler's ideas have become popular to help people passing through a faith crises. Fowler postulated six stages of natural progression of faith. Only a very few ever attain the sixth stage. Nearly all pass through the first two stages as a natural part of maturing.

As people mature they typically reach what is defined by Dr. Fowler as Stage Three faith, a faith which admits to some areas of uncertainty and of areas of growth -- but, basically people in Stage Three are focused upon discovering The Truth, and feel themselves in possession of a good portion of this. Only rarely do mature, healthy adults naively presume themselves in full possession of The Whole Truth--that tends to be the preserve of those fanatics discussed earlier in this thread. I will return to those in a moment.

Most Stage Three individuals are aware that others also think that they have The Truth, and that the other's Truth is a different Truth in some sense. But, they try not to think too deeply or often about this. Those others are just wrong, or at best have some fragments of the Truth. The mature Stage Three individual focuses on living their own Truth.

This may or may not include becoming a Freemason. Masonry doesn't actively try to deny that "my Church" is the One True Church. (Or, the One True Political Party, for that matter: any ideology can become the One Truth for some: even the Lodge, itself).

However, the whole enterprise of bringing men of good will from all sorts of philosophical backgrounds, political beliefs, and faiths is not conducive to a militant conviction that I am right and all y'all are wrong.

Most who feel this way probably shy clear of the Lodge, and develop good reasons for doing so. They just join a good church, or some other great Cause, and serve there.

About half of us, btw, will pass into Fowler's Stage Four: faith crisis. Maybe due to an abusive Church, maybe due to a life tragedy, maybe because we suddenly intuit that we do NOT have The Truth: that The Truth either lies elsewhere, or else that the best we can do, in this life, is to find a handful of truths--lower-case "t"--and use those, as well we can to help others and to serve God.

Around half of us revert back to Stage Three: we convert to a new Church or religion, or political cause, we find a new Truth.

We find closure to our grief, we resolve the abusive situation.

We go back to Stage Three -- or may more like Stage 3.5. We are not exactly the same, we have integrated a few elements of Stage Five.

A few people remain 'stuck' in Stage Four, in angry atheism or agnosticism, or in bitterness, resentment of the organization which failed us, etcetera.

Freemasonry may snag a few of those, the ones who believe in God but hate Him or at least His Church, or who are disillusioned in the Party or ideology which once represent their One Truth. They may not generally be our best or most effective members.

And some people remain on the interstices between Stage Three and Stage Four-- chronically on the cusp of a faith crises, which drives them to extremes. Those are the fanatics, and they deserve our compassion, our sympathy. They are sufferers of a most exquisite torment, ever afraid of losing their Faith, and often directing that fear towards the Lodge (or some other evil--but we experience it as anti-Masonic fervor).

Because, many, perhaps most Masons probably are numbered among that other, nearly-half, of those who pass through Stage Four. Many of us achieved Stage Five: we are less focused on having The Truth, more accepting that this life presents us with many, seemingly contradictory truths. We believe, we hope, that somewhere, somehow, someone will reveal to us the Grand Unifying Truth, the thing that will weave together all the other truths.

Meanwhile, however, we have what we have and do with it what we can. We accept thay tge quest for knowledge and wisdom can be ambiguous, messy at times. But what we have found succors us, strengthens us, and givesus hopevand a desire to help others.

We glean a few more bytes of wisdom, and we pass those in, in our Lodge, in our service to our families and communities, in the caring and the compassion we show to those need it. In our fraternal charity towards our fellow Lodge Brethren.

As annoying as they can be, our compassion should include the anti-Masons. We don't have to endorse them nor even engage them: but we can realize what is likely to be driving them, and we can make them objects of our prayers.

Hope this helps.
 

Elexir

Registered User
Among Christians, those groups most committed to submiiting themselves to either a conservative, systematic theology of the Scriptures, or the systematic teachings of a tradition (Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodoxy), are most likely to have qualms about freemasonry

The RCCs problem does not just come from a theological standpoint (I belive it would be easier if it did) but also from geopolitical, there is a lot of Freemasonry in the continent that is downright anti-chatolic and fights politicaly against the vatican.
 

Bloke

Premium Member
Is it worth pointing out that Truth is a reification - the turning of a quality (trueness) into an object independent of context or reference point?

Thus we measure a wall with a plumb line to see if it is true (to the direction of gravity). But if we move the wall it is unlikely to be true.

What then is truth? To what is it true? To the Bible? To a belief system? To an eyewitness account?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reification_(fallacy)
A platonic view ?

So no absolute truth for you James ?
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
Among Christians, those groups most committed to submiiting themselves to either a conservative, systematic theology of the Scriptures, or the systematic teachings of a tradition (Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodoxy), are most likely to have qualms about Freemasonry.

Those who see their faith in messier terms, as providing comfort, solace, meaning, and truths--but NOT Absolute Truth--those who see their faith more as a pilgrimage than as a destination at which they have arrived--are most likely to feel that Freemasonry is compatible with and even helpful to their faith.

Fowler's Stages of Faith Development may also be relevant here. Fowler's ideas have become popular to help people passing through a faith crises. Fowler postulated six stages of natural progression of faith. Only a very few ever attain the sixth stage. Nearly all pass through the first two stages as a natural part of maturing.

As people mature they typically reach what is defined by Dr. Fowler as Stage Three faith, a faith which admits to some areas of uncertainty and of areas of growth -- but, basically people in Stage Three are focused upon discovering The Truth, and feel themselves in possession of a good portion of this. Only rarely do mature, healthy adults naively presume themselves in full possession of The Whole Truth--that tends to be the preserve of those fanatics discussed earlier in this thread. I will return to those in a moment.

Most Stage Three individuals are aware that others also think that they have The Truth, and that the other's Truth is a different Truth in some sense. But, they try not to think too deeply or often about this. Those others are just wrong, or at best have some fragments of the Truth. The mature Stage Three individual focuses on living their own Truth.

This may or may not include becoming a Freemason. Masonry doesn't actively try to deny that "my Church" is the One True Church. (Or, the One True Political Party, for that matter: any ideology can become the One Truth for some: even the Lodge, itself).

However, the whole enterprise of bringing men of good will from all sorts of philosophical backgrounds, political beliefs, and faiths is not conducive to a militant conviction that I am right and all y'all are wrong.

Most who feel this way probably shy clear of the Lodge, and develop good reasons for doing so. They just join a good church, or some other great Cause, and serve there.

About half of us, btw, will pass into Fowler's Stage Four: faith crisis. Maybe due to an abusive Church, maybe due to a life tragedy, maybe because we suddenly intuit that we do NOT have The Truth: that The Truth either lies elsewhere, or else that the best we can do, in this life, is to find a handful of truths--lower-case "t"--and use those, as well we can to help others and to serve God.

Around half of us revert back to Stage Three: we convert to a new Church or religion, or political cause, we find a new Truth.

We find closure to our grief, we resolve the abusive situation.

We go back to Stage Three -- or may more like Stage 3.5. We are not exactly the same, we have integrated a few elements of Stage Five.

A few people remain 'stuck' in Stage Four, in angry atheism or agnosticism, or in bitterness, resentment of the organization which failed us, etcetera.

Freemasonry may snag a few of those, the ones who believe in God but hate Him or at least His Church, or who are disillusioned in the Party or ideology which once represent their One Truth. They may not generally be our best or most effective members.

And some people remain on the interstices between Stage Three and Stage Four-- chronically on the cusp of a faith crises, which drives them to extremes. Those are the fanatics, and they deserve our compassion, our sympathy. They are sufferers of a most exquisite torment, ever afraid of losing their Faith, and often directing that fear towards the Lodge (or some other evil--but we experience it as anti-Masonic fervor).

Because, many, perhaps most Masons probably are numbered among that other, nearly-half, of those who pass through Stage Four. Many of us achieved Stage Five: we are less focused on having The Truth, more accepting that this life presents us with many, seemingly contradictory truths. We believe, we hope, that somewhere, somehow, someone will reveal to us the Grand Unifying Truth, the thing that will weave together all the other truths.

Meanwhile, however, we have what we have and do with it what we can. We accept thay tge quest for knowledge and wisdom can be ambiguous, messy at times. But what we have found succors us, strengthens us, and givesus hopevand a desire to help others.

We glean a few more bytes of wisdom, and we pass those in, in our Lodge, in our service to our families and communities, in the caring and the compassion we show to those need it. In our fraternal charity towards our fellow Lodge Brethren.

As annoying as they can be, our compassion should include the anti-Masons. We don't have to endorse them nor even engage them: but we can realize what is likely to be driving them, and we can make them objects of our prayers.

Hope this helps.
And some of us get to Stage 6"Universalizing" faith: we maturely, thoughtfully and whole-heartedly realize and accept that the church (or religion) is NOT our faith, and it CANNOT even begin to come close to offering us what we need to explore-know-practice it. ;)
 

flameburns623

Registered User
Is it worth pointing out that Truth is a reification - the turning of a quality (trueness) into an object independent of context or reference point?

Thus we measure a wall with a plumb line to see if it is true (to the direction of gravity). But if we move the wall it is unlikely to be true.

What then is truth? To what is it true? To the Bible? To a belief system? To an eyewitness account?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reification_(fallacy)

"God" , the Immovable Mover is Absolute Truth.

What "moves" is our apprehension of Him, our understandings and knowledge of Him.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
"Reification is part of normal usage of natural language (just like metonymy for instance), as well as of literature, where a reified abstraction is intended as a figure of speech, and actually understood as such."

"But the use of reification in logical reasoning or rhetoric is misleading and usually regarded as a fallacy."

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reification_(fallacy)
 

flameburns623

Registered User
And some of us get to Stage 6"Universalizing" faith: we maturely, thoughtfully and whole-heartedly realize and accept that the church (or religion) is NOT our faith, and it CANNOT even begin to come close to offering us what we need to explore-know-practice it. ;)

For me: Church gives me the "fundamentals" which I need to know, explore, worship, and practice my spirituality, my faith. Like at least one other person here, I am Mormon, so I operate under a schema of multiple Heavens, of continuing Divine Revelation, with a conviction that Divinely appointed free agency means there are multiple paths.

I am articulating this more broadly than it is taught within our correlated ("officially approved") lessons. My personal, private theology is as likely as not to be informed by ProgMos ("Progressive" Mormons, more often than not on the periphery of what my Church approves, and who sometimes are outright rebels or dissidents).

I, myself, am not a dissident, btw: just soneone comfortable enough that I an able to hear sometimes challenging truths. But: part of being empathic, of being compassionate, is recognizing that official Church venues rarely if ever can provide a discussion of the peripheral and the chalkenging. In general, Sunday services, Sunday classes, and the youth seminaries, are designed for the weakest and tenderest of consciences. (I have the impression that our LDS college system may make some, discreet and respectful, provisions for deepening and broadening one's theological knowledge: but even there, things are kept pretty firmly in hand).

Not all ProgMos recognize that: a few are always trying to make radical changes in something or another. I am friends with at least one scholarly LDS member who is rather openly using his "calling" to provide aid and comfort to dissenters. Another former local leader does likewise. I keep expecting to hear that one or both of these are under Church discipline.

These are what I would term "Evangelical Progressives", and while I think these folks may aspire to a Stage Five or Stage Six faith, I am not certain they are not stuck in a Stage 3.5 paradigm.

But that is an internal, LDS problem, though some Masonic Brethren may belong to faith traditions which have similar problems with militantly disruptive or arrogant dissenters. Clandestine Masonic groups, particularly those accepting atheists or raising Women to the sublime degree of Master Mason, might be examples.

In any case: Freemasonry has some venues where I can explore things a bit more--though Masonry itself has both an orthodoxy and tender consciences which do not need to be offended. I see myself here to assist and to serve, not to shock nor repel.

Hope this has not veered too far off the track of this thread, which I took to be about Christianity and Freemasonry, specifically about the opposition of some Christians to Freemasonry. Be aware that such critics are earnestly seeking to provoke a sort of faith crises in Frermasons, to cause Masons to fear their relationship with the Divine is in jeopardy, that we have leagued ourselves with Devil worshippers and/or would-be world despots. Their motive tends to be that they, themselves are chronically on the razor's edge of a faith crises themselves. And laboring under a terrific burden thereby.
 

coachn

Coach John S. Nagy
Premium Member
It is possible to be true at the same time to a few principles or entities. but being true to everyone and everything at the same time is obviously impossible. Hence Truth is not absolute.
Is that a fact?
 

Bloke

Premium Member
It is possible to be true at the same time to a few principles or entities. but being true to everyone and everything at the same time is obviously impossible. Hence Truth is not absolute.

In the modern world, we're taught Truth is relative and to reject/ question it, and there are no absolutes because truth is relative. Is that True in a masonic system? Truth might be the the GAOTU exists, but ones understanding will mean what the GAOTU is varies... but the absolute truth the GAOTU exists remains..

Or are " absolute " truths just facts as Coach perhaps suggests. Or is our system an anachronism when it comes to its expression of Truth ?
 
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